WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.080 00:00:20.150 --> 00:00:23.790 Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, 00:00:23.990 --> 00:00:27.830 your gateway to the world of startups, tech and innovation across Germany, 00:00:28.250 --> 00:00:31.150 Switzerland and Austria with a global perspective. 00:00:31.770 --> 00:00:37.050 Today's guest brings a razor sharp mind, FBI level training and a whole lot 00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:39.670 of real world wisdom to the microphone. 00:00:40.150 --> 00:00:44.290 Matthias Buhlmann is one of Germany's leading voices in safe psychology, 00:00:44.930 --> 00:00:49.530 crisis negotiations and strategic communications for founders and executives. 00:00:49.530 --> 00:00:54.790 He has been trained by the former head of FBI hostage negotiation unit, 00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:58.730 holds a TÜV certification in Verkaufspsychologie, 00:00:59.190 --> 00:01:04.010 meaning sales psychology, and is a certified storytelling coach whose methods 00:01:04.010 --> 00:01:10.250 have helped startups, corporates, and solopreneurs alike turn cold leads into 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:13.530 powerful connections without manipulation, hopefully. 00:01:14.110 --> 00:01:18.350 He's the creator of the podcast Psychologie, die verkauft und Skagel, 00:01:18.530 --> 00:01:22.530 so meaning psychology that sells. And what is Skagel? 00:01:22.830 --> 00:01:28.150 Skagel is about scaling agile. So also I'm an interim manager and support large 00:01:28.150 --> 00:01:31.410 companies with agile digital transformation. 00:01:31.590 --> 00:01:36.350 And I was funding an own department within Accenture where I worked seven years, 00:01:36.570 --> 00:01:41.070 which combines large SAP programs and scaling agile. 00:01:41.630 --> 00:01:46.010 Great. And in this podcast, you break down the science of influence and sales, 00:01:46.530 --> 00:01:52.730 leadership and large scale agile transformation, whether you're advising executive 00:01:52.730 --> 00:01:58.550 teams, preparing founders for high stakes investor talks or teaching emotional 00:01:58.550 --> 00:02:01.370 triggered strategies for Gen Z buyers. 00:02:01.830 --> 00:02:06.390 Matisse always leads with clarity, authenticity and results. 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:12.470 Today, we'll uncover how founders can negotiate like pros, how messaging psychology 00:02:12.470 --> 00:02:17.310 can drive real growth, and what startups can learn from FBI playbooks, 00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:23.490 motivational hormone models, and Netflix-worthy storytelling frameworks. 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:27.650 Matthias, welcome to the show and a real pleasure to have you here with us. 00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:33.010 Jörn, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here and I can add one thing. 00:02:33.010 --> 00:02:40.030 I was also trained before three weeks by the ex-director of Crisis and Hostess 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:43.910 Negotiation from Scotland Yard, from Nicky Perfect also. 00:02:44.350 --> 00:02:47.570 That is a great name for a trainer, Nicky Perfect. 00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:49.750 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 00:02:50.190 --> 00:02:53.910 Amazing. I was wondering, let's open with a bold prediction. 00:02:54.770 --> 00:02:58.710 What bold prediction do you have for the future of communication, 00:02:58.990 --> 00:03:03.050 negotiation or sales psychology for 2030? you 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.560 It's the same like in the last 10, 15 years, 1 million years, 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:10.760 people buying from people. 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:15.240 And for sure, we can use K-I-A-I and so on. 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:20.100 But at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's about emotions. 00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:27.380 And it's about my own emotions to get them under control and also to trigger 00:03:27.380 --> 00:03:31.280 the positive emotions from the opposite at the end of the day. 00:03:32.380 --> 00:03:37.840 I see. But I get the feeling you cannot sell necessarily with AI, 00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:43.720 but you can really work on the funnel that brings a potential lead to you. 00:03:44.580 --> 00:03:52.080 Absolutely. You see that LinkedIn currently, a lot of KI stuff is out there, also commands from KI. 00:03:52.300 --> 00:03:55.160 And I see it that's a little bit heartless. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.780 And this is what I really see and feel then. and this person doesn't have so 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:07.300 much success. For sure, I work also in the preparation and for my funnels also with KI. 00:04:07.980 --> 00:04:14.960 But at the end of the day, I look over it and I really do copywriting by myself 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:16.240 at the end of the day also. 00:04:16.660 --> 00:04:22.060 Ideas I get from the KI sometimes because brain is empty. I'm a knowledge worker, you know. 00:04:22.820 --> 00:04:28.840 But at the end of the day, I have a hands-on mentality And at the end of the 00:04:28.840 --> 00:04:31.140 day, I will do things by my own. 00:04:32.780 --> 00:04:38.020 Let's start at the beginning. What was the aha moment that led you to study 00:04:38.020 --> 00:04:43.100 FBI style negotiation and psychology for business? 00:04:44.546 --> 00:04:50.026 My aha moment and greetings going out to my ex-boss Malte at Accenture. 00:04:50.306 --> 00:04:56.046 He told me, Matthias, what you do is good, but you can do it better because 00:04:56.046 --> 00:04:59.586 you are not trained in negotiation. 00:04:59.586 --> 00:05:06.986 It was in 2020, two, three months before we had the first lockdown in Germany with Corona. 00:05:08.106 --> 00:05:13.546 And I had a really good training, the first time that I had a negotiation training. 00:05:13.546 --> 00:05:18.846 And the outcome was, Matthias, you're one of the best guys we ever trained, 00:05:18.866 --> 00:05:24.346 but now you're much more better than before because you got a lot of practices 00:05:24.346 --> 00:05:27.766 and knowledge from experienced trainers. 00:05:28.506 --> 00:05:36.726 And after two years, I asked myself, okay, is this all with negotiation or can I do something else? 00:05:37.006 --> 00:05:41.486 And then I was informed myself about negotiation trainings. There's a lot of 00:05:41.486 --> 00:05:44.886 negotiations, negotiation trainings out there. 00:05:45.046 --> 00:05:48.366 And I found a really, really good trainer. 00:05:49.406 --> 00:05:52.366 And I had five or six classes with him. 00:05:52.506 --> 00:05:59.906 He's since 25 years with the Harvard professors and do a lot of scientific things, 00:06:00.206 --> 00:06:02.726 which his training is based on. 00:06:03.406 --> 00:06:09.226 And on one day he said, Matthias, I have an offer for you. I get the ex-FBI 00:06:09.226 --> 00:06:13.126 chef boss from the negotiation unit, Gary Nusner. 00:06:13.386 --> 00:06:16.986 Are you willing to have a training with him? I directly say yes. 00:06:17.886 --> 00:06:25.986 And this was my way to the crazy thing that I had a training with the ex-FBI 00:06:25.986 --> 00:06:29.666 crisis negotiation unit boss, Gary Nusner. 00:06:29.666 --> 00:06:34.766 My aha moment was at Accenture, where I was doing a lot of sales, 00:06:35.106 --> 00:06:41.726 recruiting, and my boss see that there's much more in me, but I need to uncover 00:06:41.726 --> 00:06:43.566 it with the professional training. 00:06:46.918 --> 00:06:54.498 Many people still associate selling with manipulation how do you define ethical 00:06:54.498 --> 00:06:59.818 sales psychology and why the founders need it more than ever 00:06:59.818 --> 00:07:05.938 We see other people two times in our life so i was an ex-sales professional 00:07:05.938 --> 00:07:13.858 before 15 and 20 years before i study after my my apprenticeship in the early 2000s. 00:07:14.218 --> 00:07:20.138 And from the beginning, I saw a lot of salespeople who sell more than they can. 00:07:20.278 --> 00:07:24.718 At the end of the day, and I was in the software divisions selling software, 00:07:25.018 --> 00:07:31.238 I saw that a lot of IT technicans and developers need to do something what they 00:07:31.238 --> 00:07:36.838 cannot do because salespeople promised, declined, they can do it. 00:07:36.838 --> 00:07:44.898 And for me from the first day it was really clear i don't sell things which i cannot deliver, 00:07:45.978 --> 00:07:52.718 full stop and for sure i didn't do i didn't make all the deals what i can in 00:07:52.718 --> 00:07:56.618 the past but at the end of the day when i see the persons a second time. 00:07:57.818 --> 00:08:04.358 I can i can go out and get a drink with them so they are not angry to me and 00:08:04.358 --> 00:08:05.798 i had it one time in my life, 00:08:06.438 --> 00:08:11.558 Joe, because I was a professional chief entertainer. 00:08:11.858 --> 00:08:15.738 And in this time at Fuerteventura, I met an old client for me. 00:08:15.838 --> 00:08:21.078 And he said, Matthias, it was the best sales that I ever had because you only 00:08:21.078 --> 00:08:22.878 promised what you can deliver. 00:08:23.178 --> 00:08:29.438 The people after you from your company promised me more but didn't deliver or 00:08:29.438 --> 00:08:32.258 are really late. And this is what I really appreciate. 00:08:33.658 --> 00:08:38.198 And at the end of the day, when I'm a founder, and I have a lot of contacts 00:08:38.198 --> 00:08:42.578 to founders in Zoling and also in Düsseldorf, where I support, 00:08:43.278 --> 00:08:47.318 and they're really loving their solutions. 00:08:48.778 --> 00:08:53.118 And they need to make more clear what the boundaries are. 00:08:53.898 --> 00:08:57.538 Don't promise what you can't deliver. At the end of the day, 00:08:57.638 --> 00:08:59.718 a lot of startups failed, and it's totally okay. 00:09:00.238 --> 00:09:06.378 A girlfriend of mine said, I found it 12 times. 11 times doesn't work. 00:09:06.638 --> 00:09:09.898 And this is in Germany, we know, Almonds, it's not okay. 00:09:10.058 --> 00:09:14.338 But in the other world, it's okay if you fail and if you learn out of it. 00:09:14.478 --> 00:09:18.638 But don't promise what you can't deliver. 00:09:18.778 --> 00:09:24.138 Because at the end of the day, if you then be a new founder for another product 00:09:24.138 --> 00:09:26.638 and it's the same target group, 00:09:26.918 --> 00:09:36.938 maybe you come back to the old client and there doesn't will be a new client. So don't promise. 00:09:37.698 --> 00:09:43.998 And the ethical thing is a really big thing in the negotiation also. 00:09:44.138 --> 00:09:45.638 There are a lot of studies out of it. 00:09:46.318 --> 00:09:50.298 But at the end of the day, if you're a friendly person in sales or negotiation, 00:09:50.698 --> 00:09:54.958 be sure at the end of the day, the other person will be friendly also. 00:09:55.218 --> 00:10:03.078 Or if not, then the other person maybe is not the right target person for a 00:10:03.078 --> 00:10:04.278 product or for a company. 00:10:04.698 --> 00:10:09.238 We're getting straight into the next question. By the way, most people won't 00:10:09.238 --> 00:10:12.238 see it, but I have seen that you have a cat in the background. 00:10:12.238 --> 00:10:14.258 What's the name of the anonymous guest? 00:10:14.878 --> 00:10:19.378 This is Tia. She's now laying here. And the other one is easy. 00:10:19.658 --> 00:10:25.938 They're both British shorthairs. And the other one is a real big British shorthair 00:10:25.938 --> 00:10:27.718 cat. They're my ladies here. 00:10:27.898 --> 00:10:31.618 They're the most agile and most trade negotiation cats in the world. 00:10:31.618 --> 00:10:36.258 They don't want to do my job so that I can lay on a beach. 00:10:36.898 --> 00:10:43.378 I see. We are already getting a little bit into the tactical deep dive frameworks and tools. 00:10:43.378 --> 00:10:47.838 And I was wondering, what do you think is the biggest misconception startup 00:10:47.838 --> 00:10:54.878 leaders have about negotiating, especially under pressure, like the BATNA framework for founders? 00:10:55.678 --> 00:11:00.638 They often have no BATNA. So for the people outside, what is a BATNA? 00:11:00.758 --> 00:11:04.098 It's the best alternative to negotiated agreement. 00:11:04.918 --> 00:11:10.358 It's our best plan B. So for sure, we work here with a plan B. 00:11:11.138 --> 00:11:16.638 And if you don't have a plan B, so if you don't can make it in another way, 00:11:17.538 --> 00:11:22.538 then the only way to make sales, to make a deal, is now on this table. 00:11:23.018 --> 00:11:28.838 And this brings you sometimes not in the best situation. So you give up earlier, 00:11:29.258 --> 00:11:30.938 you give a lot of rebates, etc. 00:11:31.378 --> 00:11:36.498 So be sure that you have a best alternative to a negotiated agreement. 00:11:36.678 --> 00:11:42.098 So the question is, what can I do? when I go out of the table and have no result here. 00:11:43.539 --> 00:11:49.239 That's a question. And often enough, people think for sure we can negotiate. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:56.439 I was a negotiator in the school. I was doing the Abibal or some other things 00:11:56.439 --> 00:12:00.039 that are organized for other pupils in my school. 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:08.259 You call it negotiation. And I was five and a half years in a child and youth 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:14.999 psychiatry as I was 11 until 16 years. and I was negotiating for my life a lot. 00:12:15.219 --> 00:12:22.519 But this has nothing to do with the same things what I did after a professional training. 00:12:22.739 --> 00:12:27.699 And this doesn't mean that you need to do six, seven trainings like me and FBI 00:12:27.699 --> 00:12:28.939 and Scotland Yard trainings. 00:12:29.659 --> 00:12:34.899 It's absolutely enough when you do two days of professional training, 00:12:35.099 --> 00:12:40.079 for example, Harvard Concept or with trainers who are really experienced and 00:12:40.079 --> 00:12:43.079 also have professional trainings, etc. 00:12:43.819 --> 00:12:48.739 Two days are enough. And there are two studies out there from 2010, 00:12:48.739 --> 00:12:53.639 which prove this also, that people who are trained two days with the Harvard 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:57.219 negotiation concept, basic training, nothing special, 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.639 that they are much more effective than people who are not trained. 00:13:05.747 --> 00:13:13.687 It's really easy. It's not that difficult, to be honest. And it doesn't need to cost 10,000 euros. 00:13:13.987 --> 00:13:18.487 If you have a good trainer, you can make it with a group, two days, 00:13:18.727 --> 00:13:23.527 5,000 to 10,000 people. If you have a big group of 10,000, 12 people, 00:13:23.827 --> 00:13:28.087 so per person around 1,000, 2,000 euros maximum. 00:13:30.567 --> 00:13:38.947 And how can startup founders use the either VATNA or SOPA framework to improve 00:13:38.947 --> 00:13:42.607 their investor negotiations or enterprise deals? 00:13:43.267 --> 00:13:49.587 So first of all, you need to zoom out and don't be emotional because it's your 00:13:49.587 --> 00:13:50.727 child at the end of the day. 00:13:50.847 --> 00:13:53.127 If you are a founder, then it's your child. 00:13:53.307 --> 00:13:58.967 And some people say, yeah, the first thing what I killed is my child, but not my human child. 00:13:59.147 --> 00:14:02.747 So my professional business child. 00:14:03.067 --> 00:14:11.487 And think about if it's the only way to make a deal here. Is this the only way 00:14:11.487 --> 00:14:16.687 to go on or do I have another option? 00:14:17.467 --> 00:14:22.647 And the first thing what you really need to do is zoom out and be not emotional. 00:14:22.647 --> 00:14:25.307 And this is the most critical thing. 00:14:25.407 --> 00:14:29.907 And I'm a really emotional guy to do it by myself. 00:14:30.167 --> 00:14:35.527 And now what I say, Jörn, it's really, really, really difficult. 00:14:35.527 --> 00:14:39.407 And in this situation, it can help to have one, 00:14:39.687 --> 00:14:44.887 two, three hours of a professional coach, trainer, consultant in the negotiation 00:14:44.887 --> 00:14:51.967 area to ask him or her to help you to zoom out and don't be emotional. 00:14:52.387 --> 00:14:59.787 Ask the right questions. Because the answer, I swear you, it's inside the mouth of the founders. 00:14:59.787 --> 00:15:08.587 But they need a sparrings partner who helps them to zoom out and go out of the emotional area. 00:15:10.555 --> 00:15:19.415 And to be honest, emotions are 99% of the reasons why people take hostages. 00:15:20.255 --> 00:15:27.655 Almost men's and almost because of emotional situations, they are not planned. 00:15:30.535 --> 00:15:37.595 So emotions is a basic for everyone to learn about your triggers, your emotions. 00:15:38.335 --> 00:15:42.675 And this is more than 50% of the negotiation process. 00:15:43.915 --> 00:15:48.555 And then we take care of the other side, of the triggers, emotionals, 00:15:48.555 --> 00:15:54.755 and how we can help them to say yes. And you ask questions about ethics. 00:15:55.015 --> 00:16:02.855 And I call it white and dark sales psychology. or what I teach the people, 00:16:03.035 --> 00:16:08.615 I show them, you can use in the good world and in the bad world. 00:16:08.955 --> 00:16:14.655 It's like a knife. And with a knife, you can slice some apples or you can kill people. 00:16:15.235 --> 00:16:22.975 It's really simple. It's a knife. And negotiation and psychology skills are a really sharp knife. 00:16:24.175 --> 00:16:30.415 And I make clear to my clients that I'm not going into negotiation or don't 00:16:30.415 --> 00:16:34.435 will support them as if they do bad things. Really simple. 00:16:36.215 --> 00:16:43.315 That actually does make sense. Tell us about, we're talking about MotivCompass, 00:16:43.455 --> 00:16:45.555 something like the motivational compass. 00:16:45.915 --> 00:16:51.995 How can founders or marketers use it to sell effectively without selling out? 00:16:52.835 --> 00:17:00.535 Yeah, thank you very much. Really simple. This is a neuroscience model from Dirk Eilert. 00:17:00.695 --> 00:17:03.155 I don't know if you ever heard the name. 00:17:03.315 --> 00:17:09.195 It's one of the leading micro-expressions experts in Germany or in the DACH 00:17:09.195 --> 00:17:12.595 region and the German-speaking region in Europe. 00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:20.695 And he and a professor, doctor, were founding this MotivCompass for another thing. 00:17:20.695 --> 00:17:28.755 So they ask themselves, okay, if people we coached and they have traumatized, 00:17:28.835 --> 00:17:31.875 they have blockers, how can we help them more effectively? 00:17:32.135 --> 00:17:35.455 And then they build up this motif compass. So it's like a disc. 00:17:35.895 --> 00:17:40.315 It's extended disc model, like red, blue, green, and yellow, 00:17:40.455 --> 00:17:45.175 where we say, okay, red is like people like Trump. What's in for me? 00:17:45.515 --> 00:17:50.975 I need power. I need fast cars. I need status, etc. 00:17:51.375 --> 00:17:58.795 Blue is like financial offices, people, data and facts. 00:17:59.195 --> 00:18:07.815 Green people are like kindergartner, like people who are working in the social jobs and the yellow one. 00:18:08.872 --> 00:18:12.732 It's like chief entertainers. It's really simple what I say now, 00:18:12.852 --> 00:18:14.532 but at the end of the day, it's like this. 00:18:14.712 --> 00:18:19.432 And all these people need other pictures, other words. 00:18:19.652 --> 00:18:24.672 If I would like to sell something to Mr. Trump, I would only have him in my 00:18:24.672 --> 00:18:26.592 picture and say, you will be the number one. 00:18:26.732 --> 00:18:30.532 This product will help you to be the number one of the number one. 00:18:30.932 --> 00:18:35.732 No one will come after you. If I go with the blue one, I say, 00:18:36.052 --> 00:18:41.872 or the green one, I will say, okay, I will save you to have issues in the future 00:18:41.872 --> 00:18:47.572 and the community will support you also with questions. 00:18:48.272 --> 00:18:56.192 So it's really another thing how I tell the people about my product or in the negotiations. 00:18:56.192 --> 00:18:59.392 Yeah so red and 00:18:59.392 --> 00:19:02.092 yellow is like i would like 00:19:02.092 --> 00:19:05.852 to reach something at the target and green and 00:19:05.852 --> 00:19:11.092 blue for example they would like to saved yeah they are not really happy when 00:19:11.092 --> 00:19:15.672 i say hey with this product you can do more more more they say okay i'm not 00:19:15.672 --> 00:19:21.652 really sure but when i tell them hey with this product i can help you that you 00:19:21.652 --> 00:19:25.512 are doesn't got bankrupt that you don't lose your. 00:19:26.712 --> 00:19:30.932 Friends, lose your clients, whatever. They would like to be protected. 00:19:31.632 --> 00:19:35.912 And red and blue, for example, they are target orientated. 00:19:36.172 --> 00:19:42.392 So they are not, I don't want to say they are not taking care about humans, but less humans, 00:19:43.092 --> 00:19:51.432 more objects and yellow and green are more influenced by humans, not by objects. 00:19:51.692 --> 00:19:54.152 So the human is in the middle point. Yeah. 00:19:55.180 --> 00:20:04.780 And this is what I tell them really quickly. And we can sharpen our messages with a Motive Compass. 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:09.420 And it's not really, really, really difficult. 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:16.100 I had a client, a C-suite, and she told me, Matthias, I have a blue and a yellow one in the meeting. 00:20:16.300 --> 00:20:21.420 I said, yeah, then we will do sentences where we combine this both. 00:20:22.300 --> 00:20:25.180 And we tried it and she said yeah 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:28.100 it works yeah and this was really nice to 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:30.980 hear because it was for me also the first time 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:37.260 that i do it for a client and i was sweating a little bit uh during the day 00:20:37.260 --> 00:20:41.560 and at the evening she called me told me i got more money and all the things 00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:49.420 what i want and a little bit more um all the conditions are accepted and it worked and. 00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:54.820 Before we go into a short head break, what are the three killer words that read 00:20:54.820 --> 00:20:58.720 most pitches, LinkedIn posts, or sales messages? 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:04.400 Learn, work, and, 00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:13.380 I forgot the third one. I spoke about it today. Learn, work, and, 00:21:15.820 --> 00:21:17.460 I forgot the third one. 00:21:18.320 --> 00:21:23.300 I make a suggestion we'll be on a short ad break and when we come back you'll remember okay 00:21:30.667 --> 00:21:35.287 Hey, guys, thanks for sticking around. I'm talking with Matthias Buhlmann about 00:21:35.287 --> 00:21:40.207 high stakes negotiation, how you can get the best out of it and some frameworks. 00:21:40.527 --> 00:21:45.607 And we were just talking about three killer words that were in most pitches. 00:21:45.607 --> 00:21:47.027 What was the last one you forgot? 00:21:47.227 --> 00:21:49.447 And please tell them all, all three. 00:21:49.747 --> 00:21:54.967 I forgot the word which I every time tell to my clients. 00:21:55.147 --> 00:22:01.767 Don't use it. The rest is maybe a little bit not good, but this is a killer word, is helping. 00:22:03.067 --> 00:22:06.827 Helping, learning, and working. Because at the end of the day, 00:22:06.907 --> 00:22:11.867 helping, I was doing a civil job with 80-year-old people, for sure. 00:22:12.047 --> 00:22:19.227 They need help. But a C-suite, a founder, he or she doesn't need help. He or she needs support. 00:22:20.027 --> 00:22:26.087 Find other words. Learn. We are back in the school. Did you like the school, 00:22:26.247 --> 00:22:28.287 to be honest, Jörn, at all? 00:22:30.127 --> 00:22:37.727 Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I was not really happy in my school time, and the rest is work. 00:22:37.987 --> 00:22:42.187 At the end of the day, we think hard work, and we don't want to have hard work. 00:22:42.267 --> 00:22:44.827 We would like to have it easy and quickly. 00:22:45.367 --> 00:22:49.927 So there are our base needings also in sales psychology. What's in for me? 00:22:50.387 --> 00:22:55.087 Fast and easy solutions we would like to have. 00:22:55.507 --> 00:23:02.047 But today, to be honest, I had a discussion with one guy and he said, Matthias, I'm with you. 00:23:02.267 --> 00:23:09.247 But when I heard learn, then I'm more happy to buy because when I buy, 00:23:09.347 --> 00:23:11.727 I buy really complex systems. 00:23:11.727 --> 00:23:16.547 And I'm really happy when they tell me you have to learn it before you can use 00:23:16.547 --> 00:23:22.287 it. So there is someone out there, maybe, who likes the word learn. 00:23:23.027 --> 00:23:27.567 And this is really important that you know anything and everything about your customer. 00:23:28.447 --> 00:23:32.067 Because in general, it's correct, but sometimes... 00:23:34.466 --> 00:23:38.226 Maybe it's the right word for your target group. 00:23:39.426 --> 00:23:43.586 I was wondering, I was talking to a lot of people in the past. 00:23:43.786 --> 00:23:46.986 This is almost my 700th interview in English. 00:23:47.206 --> 00:23:51.686 So I was wondering, before we get into real-world applications, 00:23:51.926 --> 00:23:58.086 I heard from a lot of people, sales work when you listen, when you're not aggressive, 00:23:58.086 --> 00:24:01.766 and when you build trust. Would you agree to these three pieces? 00:24:02.426 --> 00:24:07.186 Absolutely, fully. Absolutely. It's a first step from the FBI negotiation concept also. 00:24:08.006 --> 00:24:12.626 Active listening for the Germans, hinhören, not zuhören. 00:24:13.586 --> 00:24:17.566 So active listening, 80% is listening. 00:24:18.106 --> 00:24:25.286 Okay. Some real-world applications where you can learn a little bit from stories from the startup lens. 00:24:25.286 --> 00:24:31.006 Can you share a moment where your psychological approach helped close a tough 00:24:31.006 --> 00:24:33.446 deal or win over a difficult client? 00:24:35.066 --> 00:24:40.526 Absolutely. I had a client. It was two years before, one and a half years before, 00:24:40.786 --> 00:24:43.366 something like this. I met him three weeks before. 00:24:44.246 --> 00:24:52.146 And he does something in the ecological area with the black fly for feeding cows, etc. 00:24:52.886 --> 00:24:59.066 And he wasn't produced his first batch, but he was going to a large investor 00:24:59.066 --> 00:25:03.026 to Gelsenkirchen, Western Germany, Ruhrpott, Ruhrgebiet. 00:25:03.126 --> 00:25:11.046 And he said, Matthias, can we have quick counseling about this meeting? I said, yes, no worries. 00:25:11.506 --> 00:25:16.986 And then I was preparing myself because I found a lot of things in the Internet. 00:25:17.426 --> 00:25:21.826 And this guy was more red, orange guy. 00:25:22.146 --> 00:25:27.846 And I helped him, supported him with some sentences. We tested it. 00:25:27.906 --> 00:25:35.626 So I was the upcoming investor playing a quick role play. 00:25:35.826 --> 00:25:41.826 And he called me back three hours later and said, Matthias, he now said I didn't 00:25:41.826 --> 00:25:47.926 produce the first batch, but he bought the first batch at all without seeing anything. 00:25:49.686 --> 00:25:54.486 And this makes me really proud yeah. 00:25:57.066 --> 00:26:01.986 I see um when 00:26:01.986 --> 00:26:08.186 we talked about real world examples we also talk about your uh scaggle podcasts 00:26:08.186 --> 00:26:16.286 and courses we emphasize structure why is structure so essential for successful 00:26:16.286 --> 00:26:20.026 communications and scaling agile in enterprises. 00:26:22.223 --> 00:26:30.863 What I had yesterday, a similar discussion, and I told my upside person, I said, hey, 00:26:31.923 --> 00:26:37.423 to be honest, the clients out there doesn't need to have a scaling, 00:26:37.563 --> 00:26:38.563 agile training, whatever. 00:26:38.923 --> 00:26:41.143 They need all the communication training. 00:26:44.843 --> 00:26:53.503 Because it exists often enough, or in general, we have five steps of reclamation. 00:26:54.343 --> 00:27:00.043 So in level one, I didn't know anything about that I have an issue. 00:27:00.303 --> 00:27:03.323 In five, I only need a trigger to buy now. 00:27:03.323 --> 00:27:11.023 And when I see this, also with C-Suites and big automotive companies, 00:27:11.223 --> 00:27:20.003 also where I was supporting C-Suite and also the level below the C-Suite, 00:27:20.223 --> 00:27:30.083 I saw that there was three, five, six steps in front of information and they communicated. 00:27:30.083 --> 00:27:35.263 But they didn't take the people with them and they didn't, they was confused, 00:27:35.543 --> 00:27:38.903 they had no change management and said, hey, you need to start with zero. 00:27:39.283 --> 00:27:46.683 It's like you have small babies and they didn't know that they can run alone. 00:27:47.003 --> 00:27:48.903 So they're things, they need your hand. 00:27:49.263 --> 00:27:53.043 But you need to start much more before with the communication. 00:27:53.463 --> 00:27:59.283 So first of all, please check in which status of this five. 00:28:01.003 --> 00:28:04.963 Your client or your opposite side person is where you would like to talk to, 00:28:05.823 --> 00:28:12.523 because at the end of the day if you talk Chinese but there are Italians everyone 00:28:12.523 --> 00:28:15.903 would say yeah for some materials it's really clear but this is what, 00:28:16.523 --> 00:28:23.103 happens every day also in the transformation business on C-suite level on apprenticeship, 00:28:24.483 --> 00:28:32.623 level on all levels please take care of the status of the opposite person because 00:28:32.623 --> 00:28:35.163 it doesn't value the other person. 00:28:35.403 --> 00:28:42.103 And if the other person doesn't feel valued, you have a negotiation issue also. 00:28:42.363 --> 00:28:52.183 And we all negotiate every day. There are statistics out there from another negotiation expert. 00:28:52.443 --> 00:28:58.143 He said, statistics say that we negotiate every week 40 hours. 00:28:59.403 --> 00:29:06.403 So maybe it makes sense, Jörn, to have a communication slash negotiation training. 00:29:06.543 --> 00:29:12.043 And my negotiation trainings are often enough communication trainings also. 00:29:12.303 --> 00:29:19.543 And valuing the other person is a basic thing. If the other person doesn't feel valued... 00:29:21.791 --> 00:29:27.911 Then you have a big issue. It has nothing to do with being smart, 00:29:28.611 --> 00:29:32.231 knowing the product, knowing the company, knowing the system, 00:29:32.571 --> 00:29:36.071 nothing to do with this. Take care of the other person. 00:29:39.611 --> 00:29:45.711 I see because if you don't appreciate the other person, they'll never, ever buy from you. 00:29:46.931 --> 00:29:51.451 You've also worked in large-scale agile transformations. 00:29:51.791 --> 00:29:59.211 600-plus teams, 600-plus people in the team, what are the top two psychological 00:29:59.211 --> 00:30:02.671 blockers to agility that no one talks about? 00:30:05.371 --> 00:30:09.231 I had a podcast interview similar about this topic. 00:30:10.031 --> 00:30:13.231 There are three. The first of all, we are elements. We are not agile. 00:30:13.891 --> 00:30:18.211 We wait until someone will tell us what we have to do. 00:30:18.371 --> 00:30:22.371 It's a little bit of a running gag, but often enough, it is like this. 00:30:22.711 --> 00:30:28.831 But the first thing is, mostly we have no change management and the people doesn't know what happens now. 00:30:29.311 --> 00:30:35.151 So with agile transformation, we have new practices, new organizations, 00:30:35.551 --> 00:30:42.431 maybe new responsibilities and the people are not aware what happens now. 00:30:42.591 --> 00:30:47.471 They are scared of the future. It's a lot of uncertainty. 00:30:48.471 --> 00:30:54.251 So, therefore, we need to help them. Really, now we need to help them to understand 00:30:54.251 --> 00:31:01.691 why we do it, for what we do it, and how the way is until the transformation ends. 00:31:01.931 --> 00:31:07.011 Transformation is coming from status A into status B. 00:31:07.531 --> 00:31:12.911 You know it. It's really simple. It's like a system update, system upgrade. 00:31:13.351 --> 00:31:15.651 System A, upgrade, system B. 00:31:16.751 --> 00:31:20.931 It's the same like with the transformation. But now we talk about humans and 00:31:20.931 --> 00:31:23.551 we need to take them with us. 00:31:24.471 --> 00:31:31.111 That's really important. And therefore, a lot of communication runs really not well. 00:31:31.611 --> 00:31:35.291 And the people are scared. And at the end of the day, when we are scared. 00:31:36.471 --> 00:31:37.651 As humans, what are we doing? 00:31:37.911 --> 00:31:43.451 We go back into the system, into the behaviors, which we now and which we are 00:31:43.451 --> 00:31:47.331 safe in. What means no transformation at all? 00:31:48.071 --> 00:31:53.551 Because we should have new practices, new responsibilities, etc. 00:31:53.971 --> 00:31:58.991 But if I'm scared, I go back into the rooms, into the systems, 00:31:59.171 --> 00:32:02.571 into the habits, which make me safe. 00:32:03.951 --> 00:32:11.311 This is one of the most things. and he was publishing in Springer Gabler also 00:32:11.311 --> 00:32:17.571 a book about it or a chapter in a book and the second one is, 00:32:18.391 --> 00:32:20.871 mostly for what are we doing with this, 00:32:23.070 --> 00:32:31.170 Because, again, communication, the people are not aware of it for what is it good. 00:32:31.330 --> 00:32:36.630 So my last project was in the public services, and the people asked me from 00:32:36.630 --> 00:32:44.330 two teams, Matthias, we are not sure for what we are doing. It doesn't make sense for us. 00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:48.690 At the end of the day, for these both teams, they are right. 00:32:48.690 --> 00:32:57.170 But it was pressure from top and the department needs to do it etc and then they felt, 00:32:57.970 --> 00:33:04.010 that they didn't know for what they're doing so make clear for what you are doing. 00:33:06.290 --> 00:33:11.150 Exactly and when you talked about uncertainty I do believe that's one of the 00:33:11.150 --> 00:33:18.190 big differences if you look for a corporate job or if you look for an employment 00:33:18.190 --> 00:33:23.730 Because the people who are not looking for one of these careers, 00:33:24.030 --> 00:33:29.090 the ones who can embrace uncertainty, they are very likely to be freelancers or entrepreneurs. 00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:36.710 I was wondering for our audience, if they could go back in time, 00:33:36.870 --> 00:33:44.970 what was one thing you'd coach your past self before launching your first product team or podcast? 00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:49.830 I'm interested in what comments do 00:33:49.830 --> 00:33:55.290 we get um let us look a little bit into the last piece um the future lens and 00:33:55.290 --> 00:34:03.050 founder advice what role will psychology play in startup growth strategies post 00:34:03.050 --> 00:34:09.650 2025 especially in an ai saturated noisy market 00:34:11.232 --> 00:34:14.672 Which role within the founder's team? 00:34:14.952 --> 00:34:22.772 Yes, especially about sales, about negotiations, because you could basically use AI for anything. 00:34:23.352 --> 00:34:26.812 What role will psychology play? 00:34:27.332 --> 00:34:34.812 It's one of my favorite things, what I say, people, buying from people. 00:34:34.812 --> 00:34:40.272 What means at the end of the day the other person or the group of person needs 00:34:40.272 --> 00:34:42.772 to have the feeling that the word's coming from you, 00:34:43.832 --> 00:34:50.672 and for sure I need KI for my LinkedIn posts also but at the end of the day 00:34:50.672 --> 00:34:58.592 I 60% of these recommendations from KI I will write new and the people see it 00:34:58.592 --> 00:35:00.612 and now that it's the Matthias source, 00:35:01.512 --> 00:35:07.792 Andreas Wienheller one of my mentors said Matthias because I made a KI test before half a year. 00:35:08.472 --> 00:35:12.032 One month, every day, two posts only with KI. 00:35:12.332 --> 00:35:18.812 And he came back to me and said, Matthias, I know you. And the Matthias source is missing. 00:35:19.072 --> 00:35:26.632 So the other persons will know when you do only playbooks, selling books, 00:35:27.592 --> 00:35:29.132 PowerPoints, only with KI. 00:35:29.452 --> 00:35:35.632 For sure, KI can help you. I use Gamma.ai also for PowerPoints because I'm not a PowerPoint friend. 00:35:36.032 --> 00:35:39.732 And they give me a lot of good recommendations. But at the end of the day, 00:35:39.852 --> 00:35:44.232 I need to step in and do copywriting and change the picture. 00:35:44.232 --> 00:35:46.612 So what I don't want to see out there…. 00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:51.890 Maybe other people from the Generation Z are different here. 00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:54.170 I don't want to see KI pictures. 00:35:54.430 --> 00:36:01.890 I really like it when they do a lot of nice paintings and graphics of KI, 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:06.950 but I don't use it because I don't buy when I see something like this. 00:36:08.070 --> 00:36:13.330 Oh, too bad. The cover graphic of this interview will be with the assistance of AI. 00:36:13.330 --> 00:36:18.810 But what you've been talking about, I did have something that came back to my 00:36:18.810 --> 00:36:21.690 mind because you said people buy from people. 00:36:21.690 --> 00:36:30.690 I do have an increasing, increasing amount of people out there who think they generate 00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:40.250 random people, random names, almost random URLs that have something to do with 00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:43.110 AI and then get a lot of paying clients. 00:36:43.250 --> 00:36:49.370 And you write with those AI agents to as many podcasts as possible. 00:36:49.370 --> 00:36:53.770 I even wrote an article about it because you just check the URL. 00:36:54.090 --> 00:36:57.750 There's nothing behind it. You look up the person. 00:36:57.990 --> 00:37:02.690