WEBVTT

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<v Speaker0>How the brand is felt, how we feel as me, part of like a consumer group.

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<v Speaker0>How do we feel? How do we see brands?

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<v Speaker0>For example, if the message does not come to us and we cannot adjust,

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<v Speaker0>process them, we will not like react to the brand.

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<v Speaker0>We will not react to the loudness, rather like how we feel.

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<v Music>

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<v Speaker1>Welcome to StartupRed.io, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German

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<v Speaker1>startup scene with news, interviews and live events.

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<v Speaker1>Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRed.io,

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<v Speaker1>your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

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<v Speaker1>Today, I have Jacob with me.

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<v Speaker1>What if your startup's most powerful growth engine isn't your tech,

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<v Speaker1>pitch tech or GTM strategy, but how your brand makes people feel?

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<v Speaker1>On today's startuprate.io, we sit together down with Jacob.

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<v Speaker1>Tirpid? Tirpid? Is that pronounced right? A serious mind who enjoys exploring

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<v Speaker1>new brand shapes, the way we connect from advertising design to marketing,

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<v Speaker1>and what truly defines the essence of lasting, meaningful branding.

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<v Speaker1>Jacob is the founder of creative brand agency Yes, Yes, and Two.

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<v Speaker1>His work has directly or indirectly influenced a range of international brands,

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<v Speaker1>including Audi, Belvoir's Chocolate, the European Commission, Fight World Chess,

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<v Speaker1>Husqvarna Motorcycles, Icos, KTM, Loki, Marvel, Mattel, Noteback,

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<v Speaker1>Pernod Ricard, Red Bull,

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<v Speaker1>Remark Cars, Salzburger Land, Sebastian Professional, United Colors of Benetton, and many more.

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<v Speaker1>Jacob isn't here to talk about logos, design, or slogans.

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<v Speaker1>He's here to offer a fresh perspective on how the often overlooked biology and

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<v Speaker1>psychology behind branding can quietly play a significant role in a startup success,

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<v Speaker1>why it matters, and how we're connecting to brands in today's world.

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<v Speaker1>With over 18 years of experience in branding, marketing, advertising, and design,

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<v Speaker1>Jacobs brings a deep understanding of why branding matters, How subconscious

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<v Speaker1>brands signal, build trust long before the metrics do.

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<v Speaker1>And where the smartest founders today are shifting from B2B or B2C to H2H, human to human.

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<v Speaker1>We unpack the emotional language that customers feel but can't describe.

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<v Speaker1>How to brand authentically from day one, even with no budget.

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<v Speaker1>What do startup teams often get wrong about culture, storytelling,

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<v Speaker1>and the story behind their own product or mission?

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<v Speaker1>Why investors feel brands before you fund your round?

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<v Speaker1>If you found a CEO, investor, or simply somebody building something meaningful,

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<v Speaker1>this episode will help you understand why brands matter from day one before

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<v Speaker1>your pitch deck or presentation and offer fresh perspective on how to build

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<v Speaker1>a more cohesive brand for stronger long-term success.

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<v Speaker1>Jacob, that was quite a long intro. Welcome to StartupRate.io.

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<v Speaker0>Thank you again for giving me this opportunity. Thank you for a really nice

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<v Speaker0>introduction. I felt like a prima donna somehow.

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<v Speaker1>Jacob, you believe startups don't win by just being louder, but by being felt

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<v Speaker1>in every aspect what led you to this perspective

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<v Speaker0>Absolutely that's a good question that I was trying to reach out trying to understand

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<v Speaker0>through my journey of educational and next experimental how brands are,

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<v Speaker0>extrovert only create introvert the message that we try to position as a brand

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<v Speaker0>wants to hit the emotional tones.

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<v Speaker0>When the brand hits the emotional tones, we are rather talking about how the

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<v Speaker0>brand is making us feel rather like what is loud.

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<v Speaker0>Because I do believe that loud is not coming from having just like colors,

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<v Speaker0>logotypes and different messages painted on the wall or in the cities,

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<v Speaker0>but rather like how we feel about the brand.

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<v Speaker0>And by that, I think that I came to a conclusion that it's more important for

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<v Speaker0>us consumers than brands.

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<v Speaker0>And we feel the brands rather like that they are allowed.

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<v Speaker1>So basically, you go back to the theory that most of what we say is not in words,

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<v Speaker1>but it's in the feeling of how we convey the message.

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<v Speaker1>You talk about invisible language, invisible branding here. Can you unpack what

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<v Speaker1>it means for early stage founders?

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<v Speaker0>When it comes to invisible languages, we usually perceive in branding in terms

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<v Speaker0>of what we can track or what we cannot deal on a daily basis.

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<v Speaker0>Meaning that brands are more powered by emotional stage, which our brain biological

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<v Speaker0>part is also working in this aspect.

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<v Speaker0>Then we have the most necessary component like for success, like to be trust,

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<v Speaker0>to be trusted from like consumers as like partners, communication ways.

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<v Speaker0>And the third one, the third part of the invisible brand is definitely human to human direction,

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<v Speaker0>because it's coming more from biological aspect, how we are operating through

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<v Speaker0>the day, how we are communicating, how we are perceiving the messages and how

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<v Speaker0>we actually understand the brands and what the brands are trying to understand.

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<v Speaker0>So I would say that emotional part, trust and human to human direction,

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<v Speaker0>these are the core of foundational, the invisible branding.

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<v Speaker1>So you talk about what you feel when you see, when you experience branding.

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<v Speaker1>I was wondering the first mistake what what's the branding trap every startup falls into early on

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<v Speaker0>I would definitely say that

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<v Speaker0>the first trap that many of startups dive

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<v Speaker0>in is they are all the best in what they do they are all the best how they are

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<v Speaker0>polarizing and creating the product the service they would like to push on the

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<v Speaker0>market and then at some point they neglect the brand aspect.

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<v Speaker0>They neglected the storytelling, they neglect how conveyed the message,

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<v Speaker0>the product, the service that they would like to position on the market actually

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<v Speaker0>delivered to the consumer, to the end users.

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<v Speaker0>And this is something that it's as a startups,

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<v Speaker0>They could start not just working on the logotype, but rather like to starting

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<v Speaker0>with the storytelling to be authentically different from the other brands.

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<v Speaker0>And this would help them in order like to be a little bit different and not fall into this trap.

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<v Speaker1>You talked about in the past, internal first.

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<v Speaker1>How does internal branding drive external impact and the other way around?

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<v Speaker0>As we talk about internal branding, it's always what team do we have around us?

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<v Speaker0>What kind of people and who are helping us to develop the branding,

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<v Speaker0>to push the branding out?

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<v Speaker0>And internal branding, it's the most important because if internal branding,

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<v Speaker0>our team does not fill the brand, does not live with the brand,

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<v Speaker0>external branding will hardly survive in the market. Why?

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<v Speaker0>Because we will have to push so much effort into building internal branding.

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<v Speaker0>While we will do this, we will neglect the most important part because our competitors

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<v Speaker0>marketers will already step further and to be better and better to work on external branding.

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<v Speaker0>And they will be able to understand the consumers better, they will be able

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<v Speaker0>to reach the consumer better.

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<v Speaker0>So by this, if we don't have the right team, if we don't have the right homogen

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<v Speaker0>team, how we communicate that we believe in the product that we have,

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<v Speaker0>external branding will be hard to survive because external part is just extended hand of internal.

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<v Speaker1>Age-to-age, human-to-human philosophy.

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<v Speaker1>You reject the classical categories of B2B and B2C.

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<v Speaker1>Actually, that also makes sense for me. Instead, say it's all age to age, human to human.

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<v Speaker1>I have to smile thinking about that, thinking about the involvement of AI in the future.

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<v Speaker1>But anyways, what does this right now exactly look like?

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<v Speaker0>H2H, B2C, it's just another categorization. B2C, business to consumers, business to business.

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<v Speaker0>But on the other side, behind those names are actually like human beings who

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<v Speaker0>are actually feeling, who are feeling how we communicate,

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<v Speaker0>how we propose something, how we offer, what kind of solutions do we have.

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<v Speaker0>So rather, like to think, oh, this brand or this product goes out to certain consumers.

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<v Speaker0>Think about human to human, how it would be when you try to push the product

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<v Speaker0>to your family or to your brother, you talk to him as a person,

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<v Speaker0>as someone who actually would feel something about, because again,

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<v Speaker0>in all aspects we are wired by biology.

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<v Speaker0>From biologically spectrum, we are emotional creatures.

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<v Speaker0>And again, like being emotional, being human to human, we build trust,

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<v Speaker0>we build understanding and slowly we can build something meaningful in terms

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<v Speaker0>of having like our group of consumers,

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<v Speaker0>that actually believe in us in a brand.

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<v Speaker1>And now a very interesting aspect for me before we go into short ad break would

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<v Speaker1>be for me, how do you see AI working on this in the future?

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<v Speaker1>Meaning from H to H to H to I to H.

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<v Speaker0>Oh, that's a nice question. And of course, there will be like so many benefits.

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<v Speaker0>But on the other hand, we were still missing the humor intersection interfering,

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<v Speaker0>because in the end, it's not just about the emotion,

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<v Speaker0>which AI can still not like reach them or like to give you the perfect answer,

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<v Speaker0>but rather like to be understood,

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<v Speaker0>to be felt like the warmest of people, you know, like when someone looks into

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<v Speaker0>your eyes and say like, okay, I understand you, like I have you.

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<v Speaker0>And by this, AI is like a fantastic tool that will help like even the branding will like escalate.

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<v Speaker0>But in terms of we are not there yet,

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<v Speaker0>that would be replacing this human to human connection,

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<v Speaker0>because sometimes we might also do a mistake to leave some aspects too far away from us.

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<v Speaker1>Guys, we'll be back after a very short ad break. Jacob, you're doing much better.

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<v Speaker1>Guys welcome back thank you for sticking with

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<v Speaker1>us this is joe talking to jacob about screw

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<v Speaker1>uh forgetting b2b branding b2c

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<v Speaker1>branding it's all human to human even though we are not really sure yet how

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<v Speaker1>the ai will get involved into that let's talk a little bit about the investor

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<v Speaker1>lines here What does emotional branding mean from an investor's perspective

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<v Speaker1>and how do they usually react to it?

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<v Speaker1>How does it show up in the pitch rooms?

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<v Speaker0>Also in this matters, I do believe that investors, as they are just like humans

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<v Speaker0>on the other spectrum with whom we are communicating,

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<v Speaker0>they are looking for a brand, product, service,

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<v Speaker0>which are trustworthy, meaning that like the first front battle that they come

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<v Speaker0>across to is the person who is representing the brand,

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<v Speaker0>who is representing the company, and investors are also keen to understand them.

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<v Speaker0>Where they are coming from, how they are wired, because in the end like financially support,

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<v Speaker0>is important and based on trust and how the trust is connected to the CEO,

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<v Speaker0>to the inventor, to the startup and what kind of product do they want to position out.

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<v Speaker0>So I believe that like emotional branding, when it comes to these certain matters,

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<v Speaker0>it's also about the trust.

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<v Speaker0>The trust is the first like fence that it has to be crossed in order to reach

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<v Speaker0>hands and say like, hey, I trust you. I know that you will deliver.

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<v Speaker0>I know that you will do good. So I have trust in you that you will be able to

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<v Speaker0>pull and to do what you said, what is your pitch desk.

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<v Speaker1>I see. I was wondering because usually our audience is more in the Series C stage,

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<v Speaker1>meaning companies of 500 plus employees thinking about doing M&A,

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<v Speaker1>that's really something big there.

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<v Speaker1>And I was wondering, this scale dissonance as startups grow,

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<v Speaker1>how can their brand stay authentic and what does it mean emotionally for the

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<v Speaker1>team and their audiences.

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<v Speaker0>This is the one big of a challenge because somehow we live in a huge,

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<v Speaker0>fast, world-based market that we would always like to position something new,

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<v Speaker0>but in the branding, it's just the opposite.

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<v Speaker0>When the brand escalates, when the startup grows, they usually neglect one important

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<v Speaker0>thing. They do not need to change their story.

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<v Speaker0>They do not need to add more elements to the brand, but rather keep them simple.

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<v Speaker0>Keep them as it was at the beginning because that will also lead to authenticity,

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<v Speaker0>like how authentic they are.

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<v Speaker0>Because authentic comes like not to be a copycat, but rather like I will go

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<v Speaker0>my own line, I will do my own visual presentation, I will have like my own branding,

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<v Speaker0>I will have like my stories.

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<v Speaker0>When it comes that brands and startups are growing,

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<v Speaker0>usually they neglect the fact that they need

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<v Speaker0>to stay authentic by saying the same story as they did like at the beginning

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<v Speaker0>because otherwise they are just getting too much noise when they are adding

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<v Speaker0>new components because of the marketing pranks,

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<v Speaker0>because of the marketing speed,

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<v Speaker0>when they are adding new components as like new slogans, new keywords,

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<v Speaker0>new words, new messages.

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<v Speaker0>Everything starts just like to blur away, which is not authentic anymore,

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<v Speaker0>because it's far from what they've been at the beginning.

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<v Speaker1>So should they stick with what they've been in the beginning?

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<v Speaker1>Or should they start to adapt to the new reality?

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<v Speaker1>Most people will listen to this. I have to give them some commentary.

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<v Speaker1>You really had to think and look up in the air.

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<v Speaker0>You know, it's like you have to be flexible enough to stay authentically the

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<v Speaker0>same as you were at the beginning.

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<v Speaker0>Because, for example, I will give you a really good example.

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<v Speaker0>Be authentic. Like when you slide through the media, I see like,

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<v Speaker0>like I will give you like a really analogy, which is off from the branding, but has a good meaning.

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<v Speaker0>When you see a person who is doing something in the gym, you see how well built he is.

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<v Speaker0>You will not, you say like, I would like to be that person, but you are not

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<v Speaker0>becoming that person right away.

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<v Speaker0>So this means that like if you are adapting too much on the trends,

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<v Speaker0>on the current setting on the market, you will also lose your path from who

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<v Speaker0>you were and how you would like to communicate your brand.

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<v Speaker0>Because brand is not like you need to change, you need to always constantly adding something.

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<v Speaker0>The brand is also stay consistent, be present, be yourself, be authentic.

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<v Speaker0>And that's how you will build the trust and

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<v Speaker0>trust is an emotional thing which comes from biological aspect and we are basically

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<v Speaker0>all wired emotionally i mean we have like five seven basic emotions then we

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<v Speaker0>have like 25 27 like the rough one and 100 plus emotional components which are adding so,

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<v Speaker0>we we are not like reasonable creature we are like emotional so the trust is

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<v Speaker0>like one thing that it's like, again, human-to-human communication.

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<v Speaker0>And again, like to go a little bit deeper to the question you asked,

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<v Speaker0>how to stay authentic or should the brand change to the current trends or to the current settings?

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<v Speaker0>I would say yes, they need to be flexible enough, but not too much because they

00:19:31.302 --> 00:19:33.482
<v Speaker0>will lose their own personality.

00:19:34.898 --> 00:19:41.778
<v Speaker1>Um, if I would wrap up, no, no, we're not at the end.

00:19:42.078 --> 00:19:45.898
<v Speaker1>Would I wrap up, have to wrap up everything you said in one sentence,

00:19:46.238 --> 00:19:49.558
<v Speaker1>guys, you're doing marketing for people or not, and not Vulcans.

00:19:50.138 --> 00:19:53.418
<v Speaker0>To wrap up would be definitely the brand.

00:19:53.578 --> 00:19:59.058
<v Speaker1>What happens when a startup's external brand is stronger than its internal one?

00:19:59.178 --> 00:20:01.438
<v Speaker1>And how do consumers resonate with that?

00:20:02.038 --> 00:20:08.558
<v Speaker0>Resonates, consumers resonates. with external branding by trust,

00:20:08.858 --> 00:20:11.178
<v Speaker0>by believing in branding.

00:20:11.618 --> 00:20:17.378
<v Speaker0>It's one amazing study among many of them,

00:20:18.298 --> 00:20:29.938
<v Speaker0>humanizing brands that the same brain area activates as we would talk to a close person.

00:20:30.458 --> 00:20:40.158
<v Speaker0>So meaning that external branding, consumers are also feeling betrayed at some

00:20:40.158 --> 00:20:48.598
<v Speaker0>point if external branding is not orchestrated good or internal branding is not like polished good.

00:20:48.598 --> 00:20:54.118
<v Speaker0>So meaning when consumers come across to several brands or like communication

00:20:54.118 --> 00:20:58.398
<v Speaker0>points, they might feel rejected,

00:20:58.818 --> 00:21:03.938
<v Speaker0>they might feel insulted, or they might felt also like betrayal because the

00:21:03.938 --> 00:21:06.538
<v Speaker0>brand did not fulfill one of their needs.

00:21:07.278 --> 00:21:13.158
<v Speaker0>This could be like when they reach to customer service and they had to wait

00:21:13.158 --> 00:21:17.058
<v Speaker0>for like half an hour or like the customer service person was a little bit rude

00:21:17.058 --> 00:21:20.238
<v Speaker0>because that's a human tool on the other end.

00:21:20.398 --> 00:21:25.958
<v Speaker0>And he had like a bad day and he replied really, I don't know, too emotional.

00:21:26.318 --> 00:21:31.598
<v Speaker0>And the consumer felt like betrayal because the brand did not fulfill one of the needs.

00:21:31.598 --> 00:21:38.858
<v Speaker0>And external branding is one of the crucial points when it comes to communication,

00:21:38.858 --> 00:21:43.998
<v Speaker0>because everything is based on trust.

00:21:44.238 --> 00:21:51.018
<v Speaker0>And when the trust is there, we are emotionally open to accept new things,

00:21:51.138 --> 00:21:53.918
<v Speaker0>to accept the brand, to be part of the brand.

00:21:54.158 --> 00:21:59.218
<v Speaker0>But when something does not go along, of course, we pull back a little bit,

00:21:59.218 --> 00:22:01.278
<v Speaker0>we are not interested anymore.

00:22:01.598 --> 00:22:06.018
<v Speaker0>Or in the worst case scenario, we go to other brands.

00:22:07.477 --> 00:22:14.737
<v Speaker0>But this everything could be prevented if at the beginning startups would,

00:22:15.957 --> 00:22:26.837
<v Speaker0>pour much more time into it to to build this warmth through human communication consume you have been.

00:22:26.837 --> 00:22:32.937
<v Speaker1>Talking about biological branding activating certain areas of the brain certain

00:22:32.937 --> 00:22:41.477
<v Speaker1>regions, how branding activates brain regions, and what's happening from the biological aspects.

00:22:42.137 --> 00:22:45.117
<v Speaker1>What should founders learn from this?

00:22:49.817 --> 00:22:55.797
<v Speaker0>When we dissect brains, we put them into four levels.

00:22:56.017 --> 00:23:01.497
<v Speaker0>One is spinal cord, then it's hindbrain, midbrain, forebrain,

00:23:01.637 --> 00:23:05.337
<v Speaker0>and forebrain is like 80% of capacity that we have.

00:23:06.237 --> 00:23:13.997
<v Speaker0>And in forebrain, we have also the limbic system, which operates emotionally.

00:23:14.357 --> 00:23:22.657
<v Speaker0>So we have the hippocampus, which is part of, and in our limbic system,

00:23:22.657 --> 00:23:26.597
<v Speaker0>which is in the middle of the brain, works for memory and emotion.

00:23:27.537 --> 00:23:32.257
<v Speaker0>This fellow is like in the shape of a seahorse and we have it like on both sides

00:23:32.257 --> 00:23:38.137
<v Speaker0>so we store the memories like with emotion there, how we feel about the brand, how we see.

00:23:38.317 --> 00:23:47.957
<v Speaker0>And when we talk about biological aspects, we are always wired that the final decision,

00:23:48.477 --> 00:23:54.577
<v Speaker0>comes from emotional part because that is how we react to certain messages or

00:23:54.577 --> 00:23:59.317
<v Speaker0>to brand or like what the brand wants to say, or even to communication or like

00:23:59.317 --> 00:24:01.537
<v Speaker0>interaction between humans.

00:24:03.037 --> 00:24:13.817
<v Speaker0>And biological part for startups is, it's good and founders should take one message out of,

00:24:14.957 --> 00:24:21.817
<v Speaker0>that would be good to be emotional in terms how we position the brand,

00:24:21.957 --> 00:24:24.777
<v Speaker0>how we position the messages.

00:24:25.057 --> 00:24:28.777
<v Speaker0>How we talk about the messages, how we talk about storytelling.

00:24:29.517 --> 00:24:32.217
<v Speaker0>Emotions are not always the bad things.

00:24:33.277 --> 00:24:39.097
<v Speaker0>If they use the right thing, the brand will grow because, again,

00:24:39.377 --> 00:24:40.997
<v Speaker0>everything leads to trust.

00:24:44.097 --> 00:24:48.777
<v Speaker1>We're getting close to the end. We're now talking a little bit about branding

00:24:48.777 --> 00:24:54.357
<v Speaker1>for movements. What is the difference between a typical startup,

00:24:54.577 --> 00:24:58.397
<v Speaker1>a product-led brand, and a movement-led one?

00:25:01.437 --> 00:25:08.757
<v Speaker0>I would definitely say that movement is above everything because people are

00:25:08.757 --> 00:25:10.997
<v Speaker0>reacting, people are like emotionally.

00:25:11.457 --> 00:25:17.857
<v Speaker0>And if I can give you like an example, movement, like one example that majority

00:25:17.857 --> 00:25:23.417
<v Speaker0>of us know and we can resonate is like when the Nike campaign started,

00:25:23.597 --> 00:25:25.537
<v Speaker0>just do it. That was the moment.

00:25:25.697 --> 00:25:28.277
<v Speaker0>That was not just the product. That was not just the brand.

00:25:28.737 --> 00:25:33.577
<v Speaker0>That was not just something that happened, but rather like the whole moment

00:25:33.577 --> 00:25:40.197
<v Speaker0>because just do it triggered like different population to start actually doing

00:25:40.197 --> 00:25:43.657
<v Speaker0>something, to go to the gym, to have a new job,

00:25:44.177 --> 00:25:47.377
<v Speaker0>to find a new partner, to start a family.

00:25:47.377 --> 00:25:52.637
<v Speaker0>And that was the moment that grew. And the beauty of this is that the brand

00:25:52.637 --> 00:25:57.417
<v Speaker0>still stick with this slogan because it's, again, built on trust.

00:25:57.817 --> 00:26:06.937
<v Speaker0>And movement is something that startups can start at the beginning of the journey.

00:26:07.997 --> 00:26:11.697
<v Speaker0>Because they don't talk just about the product, about the service that they

00:26:11.697 --> 00:26:13.197
<v Speaker0>are trying to position on the market,

00:26:13.197 --> 00:26:20.197
<v Speaker0>but rather like this product or this service will help you to live your life

00:26:20.197 --> 00:26:26.457
<v Speaker0>better or at least to have more emotional part components to it,

00:26:27.177 --> 00:26:34.117
<v Speaker0>which is beyond just having a product or selling a product or like offering the product.

00:26:38.057 --> 00:26:40.857
<v Speaker1>We're getting to the last question

00:26:40.857 --> 00:26:44.777
<v Speaker1>of an interview here, a little bit of reflections during the closing.

00:26:45.257 --> 00:26:52.717
<v Speaker1>What's one belief about branding you wish every founder knew from day one?

00:26:53.577 --> 00:27:02.757
<v Speaker0>One believes it's definitely to work more on human-to-humor, on invisible branding.

00:27:02.757 --> 00:27:06.397
<v Speaker0>To have more human connection,

00:27:07.277 --> 00:27:20.937
<v Speaker0>less words, less text, but rather like brand can be extremely impactful if there's a true connection,

00:27:21.257 --> 00:27:24.977
<v Speaker0>if there's something meaningful and how to reach the consumers.

00:27:27.247 --> 00:27:29.287
<v Speaker1>Actually awesome closing words.

00:27:29.487 --> 00:27:34.867
<v Speaker1>And keep in mind, guys, you're not doing branding for robots or Vulcans.

00:27:36.147 --> 00:27:40.667
<v Speaker1>Just realize a lot of people who don't know Star Trek wouldn't know what a Vulcan is.

00:27:41.767 --> 00:27:49.247
<v Speaker1>Mr. Spock, you're making marketing for people, humans, and you should touch

00:27:49.247 --> 00:27:53.927
<v Speaker1>them at an emotional in place. Would that be about right, Jacob?

00:27:54.407 --> 00:28:00.627
<v Speaker0>I would agree 100%. We are talking about human beings.

00:28:00.807 --> 00:28:02.707
<v Speaker0>We are talking about people.

00:28:03.167 --> 00:28:07.607
<v Speaker0>And in this area, this is the fantastic opportunity because I know that startups,

00:28:07.847 --> 00:28:15.047
<v Speaker0>I know all the CEOs, investors have a fantastic product that are worth to see the daylight.

00:28:15.947 --> 00:28:21.227
<v Speaker0>And sometimes the pity is because they don't know how to reach the consumers

00:28:21.227 --> 00:28:28.547
<v Speaker0>with an awesome product or they are using the wrong words or they're using the wrong aspects.

00:28:30.627 --> 00:28:40.107
<v Speaker0>This could be done internally in the team, be authentic and talk humans.

00:28:41.207 --> 00:28:43.307
<v Speaker0>That's how the belief starts.

00:28:43.967 --> 00:28:49.367
<v Speaker1>Talk to humans. I think a very good last sentence.

00:28:49.647 --> 00:28:52.907
<v Speaker1>Jacob, Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as a guest.

00:28:53.047 --> 00:28:57.747
<v Speaker0>Thank you very much. It was really nice to talk with you, and I wish you all the best. Thank you.

00:28:58.327 --> 00:28:59.747
<v Speaker1>Thank you. Same here. Bye-bye.

00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:30.289
<v Music>