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<v Music>

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<v Speaker1>Hello and welcome everybody. Welcome to the second interview together with my

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<v Speaker1>guest, Christian Conrad, here, a former marketing director for Kellogg's in

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<v Speaker1>the Dach region, Axie Unilever,

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<v Speaker1>founder of Engagement Booster and author of Magical Company Culture in German,

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<v Speaker1>Magische Unternehmenskultur, on his mission to have one million smiling employees by 2035.

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<v Speaker1>And we've been recording for 50 minutes already, part one of our episode.

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<v Speaker1>So let's do the second episode here and go a little bit into solution systems

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<v Speaker1>and strategic impact of your work.

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<v Speaker1>Can you share a story where client turned their employee employer brand around through cultural work?

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<v Speaker0>I'll give you two very, very different examples.

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<v Speaker0>The earliest example that I had was over 10 years ago when I worked with the Naturkundermuseum,

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<v Speaker0>in Berlin and I supported the new then new general director of the Institute,

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<v Speaker0>Professor Johannes Vogel and his team for two years.

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<v Speaker0>And that was a fascinating journey because it was completely different.

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<v Speaker0>I'm a company, corporate, whatever business guy working in this kind of scientific

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<v Speaker0>community environment was fascinating and developing a new vision,

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<v Speaker0>a new mission and seeing how visionary leadership could actually transform a very, very stale,

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<v Speaker0>very kind of old fashioned organization

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<v Speaker0>into a fantastic and inspiring organization now, 10 years later.

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<v Speaker0>Um, it's very, I mean, I, I.

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<v Speaker0>We, we gave them a little bit of an initial kickstart and then they, and they were running.

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<v Speaker0>Um, but that was, that was a dramatic change of culture and employee,

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<v Speaker0>um, attractiveness as well.

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<v Speaker0>Um, and performance as well. And the other one is more recent.

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<v Speaker0>Um, it's, it's, it's for a, for a, um, smallish company, but listed in the tech

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<v Speaker0>docs in the environmental, um, in the, in the, um, renewable energies, uh, sector.

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<v Speaker0>And we changed the net promoter score from six to 40 and 18 months.

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<v Speaker0>Um, re creating a big shift in an employee brand and attractiveness as an employer

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<v Speaker0>in a company that is in an environment that is fast growth,

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<v Speaker0>um, double digit growth, um,

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<v Speaker0>year by year of over 10%.

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<v Speaker0>So that is the other story that I'm very proud of and I'm very excited about.

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<v Speaker0>And that's the story that goes on.

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<v Speaker1>Where do traditional corporate L&D programs fall short and how does your approach differ?

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<v Speaker0>I think one thing that I've run loads of learning and development initiatives

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<v Speaker0>and programs in a number of companies, big and small for the last 15, 17 years.

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<v Speaker0>And a lot of them are, I would call them interventionists.

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<v Speaker0>You run a training, you go away, you don't measure results.

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<v Speaker0>In a sense, it's almost like an incentive. Oh, you're allowed to go to a training.

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<v Speaker0>And there is very little follow-up and very little.

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<v Speaker0>It frustrated me that me as someone who is a facilitator or a mentor or coach

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<v Speaker0>in such a situation, you hardly ever get the long-term feedback.

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<v Speaker0>You know, you get the feedback at the end of the session.

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<v Speaker0>Oh, we loved the session. Well, what's actually the impact on any kind of metrics?

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<v Speaker0>I was involved in some programs where I found that they did it a little better

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<v Speaker0>because they didn't run a program over a year where there were several modules.

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<v Speaker0>You know, so that's already an improvement.

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<v Speaker0>And what I did as a result of that, I said, I want a program that actually measures

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<v Speaker0>success and that is continuous because I want to see the impact.

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<v Speaker0>I don't want to run trainings because I love trainings, but a training or a

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<v Speaker0>coaching session is a part, a module of a program with a clear objective of driving engagement.

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<v Speaker0>We measure it we run a certain sequence

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<v Speaker0>we start at the top we break it down

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<v Speaker0>into all into the leadership and then we

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<v Speaker0>roll it out in the organization and then you can really see how how it works

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<v Speaker0>and how it impacts so i like long-term projects rather than short interventions

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<v Speaker0>because I think they have a bigger impact on results.

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<v Speaker1>Actually, when I was in consulting, I also loved to do the long-running projects

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<v Speaker1>for the very simple reason that there is a lot more impact and final results that you're seeing,

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<v Speaker1>not to mention you get more acquainted with the matter,

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<v Speaker1>with the company you're working for, with culture of them, like all the different

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<v Speaker1>branches all across the globe and how they're actually interacting.

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<v Speaker1>So you learn more and you can over time more and more tailor your approach to

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<v Speaker1>this client. That's just personal experience here.

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<v Speaker0>Exactly. That's another really good aspect that you can only tailor things to

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<v Speaker0>a company if you know them well.

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<v Speaker0>You know, so, um, if I only go in for a day or two,

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<v Speaker0>it's not quite naturally, very superficial the knowledge that I have,

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<v Speaker0>but for example, let's take that client in the renewable energy sector.

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<v Speaker0>I know every single person in leadership. I know probably 60 to 80% of all employees

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<v Speaker0>because I've had the, the.

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<v Speaker0>Pleasure and the honor to work with them for seven years now.

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<v Speaker0>So I know them and I can therefore tailor anything that I do for them much more

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<v Speaker0>to their needs than I could if it was just someone I knew because we just met.

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<v Speaker1>Do you now have a question because we're talking about like it feels like two

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<v Speaker1>different perspectives, the number-driven management and emotional driven leadership.

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<v Speaker1>So how does your Covey certified work on execution connect with emotional leadership?

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<v Speaker1>Because for a lot of people, there's actually two pair of shoes,

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<v Speaker1>like we would say in Germany.

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<v Speaker1>But I do believe it is not.

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<v Speaker0>Well, I believe it's not. I think I used to work for execution,

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<v Speaker0>you know, the execution, um, model of, of, of, um, 40 X, uh, of, of coffee.

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<v Speaker0>And that framework is at the back of my head when I run any kind of engagement

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<v Speaker0>booster program, you know, the, the, the risk, the four disciplines are,

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<v Speaker0>you know, have focus on one key big goal.

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<v Speaker0>So the focus then is engagement.

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<v Speaker0>You need to measure it. Otherwise, it won't be a wildly important goal in the 40X terminology.

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<v Speaker0>You need to be able to have that kind of measure that you can track and then

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<v Speaker0>focus on the lead measures.

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<v Speaker0>That's discipline too, and the lead measures are the habits.

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<v Speaker0>So the habits, connective listening, positive reinforcement,

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<v Speaker0>and feed forward, those three habits, those three lead measures that are the lever that drives it.

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<v Speaker0>And that makes the soft, and then you should track your results.

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<v Speaker0>You should track also how you do the, how you practice the habits,

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<v Speaker0>which is why I offer my clients an app, an AI-driven app that supports them

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<v Speaker0>in developing those habits.

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<v Speaker0>Because obviously, you know, you need something to help you to actually think

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<v Speaker0>about, okay, am I actually doing

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<v Speaker0>the habits or in all the everyday madness that we're all involved in?

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<v Speaker0>So we need something that reminds you, something that gives you some impulses

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<v Speaker0>automatically as you go.

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<v Speaker0>But the key is, if you want to move it from something that's fluffy and soft

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<v Speaker0>into something that's hard and measurable, it's about execution.

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<v Speaker0>It's about what you do every day. It's about developing habits.

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<v Speaker0>It's about changing your behavior as a leader.

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<v Speaker0>And I had a beautiful example last week at a workshop with a client when one

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<v Speaker0>guy from operations, so that was, you know, in production of a client, when he said, you know,

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<v Speaker0>my colleague was at the training three weeks ago and he changed his behavior.

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<v Speaker0>I said, oh, that's interesting. What did he change? Well, he used to interrupt

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<v Speaker0>people in meetings all the time. And I noticed that since he's been to the training,

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<v Speaker0>he doesn't do that anymore.

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<v Speaker0>So that's a very tangible little story of someone taking that on board and saying,

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<v Speaker0>okay, this was very useful for me.

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<v Speaker0>I have a tool now and I've learned connective listening. And it's something

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<v Speaker0>that we've practiced in the workshop and I'm applying it as a leader in my team.

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<v Speaker0>And he leads about, I don't know, 30, 40 people, um, and the colleague and he,

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<v Speaker0>you know, have sort of neighboring teams. That's why they interact a lot.

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<v Speaker0>And within only two to two or three weeks, he already had a noticeable change

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<v Speaker0>of behavior that had an impact.

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<v Speaker1>There's also something I need to work on, not interrupting people.

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<v Speaker1>I see. You coach leaders to trust first.

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<v Speaker1>What are the business outcomes of that mindset?

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<v Speaker0>Well, I'll tell you what inspired me.

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<v Speaker0>It was probably the manager that inspired me most. When I worked at Kellogg's,

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<v Speaker0>I was marketing director and our general manager was a Danish guy called Fleming.

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<v Speaker0>And Fleming, when he presented himself to the organization, he put himself in

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<v Speaker0>front of everybody and said, I've got some management principles.

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<v Speaker0>And one of them is when I work with someone like you guys, I always give 100% trust.

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<v Speaker0>And only if that trust is abused, I will deduct.

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<v Speaker0>And for us, that was a huge paradigm shift because we came from a culture more

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<v Speaker0>of fear where you could be really happy if you had 20% trust of the management.

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<v Speaker0>So we had to cover our answers. We had to be careful. We had to hold back.

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<v Speaker0>And we didn't feel we could do a lot. We were not empowered.

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<v Speaker0>When Fleming told us, give you a hundred percent trust and only if you abuse

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<v Speaker0>it, I deduct, he gave us a vote of confidence.

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<v Speaker0>And that released a lot of energy in a turnaround situation.

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<v Speaker0>Um, and the best business benefits, better ideas, more empowerment,

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<v Speaker0>more initiative, um, more boldness, um.

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<v Speaker0>Better, better, better, better execution, um, better teamwork.

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<v Speaker0>And you could fit figures behind all of those in terms of business impact.

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<v Speaker0>And I think anybody who's listening, who's running an organization,

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<v Speaker0>probably knows what I'm talking about.

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<v Speaker0>You know, if people actually believe in themselves, and I could feel it as,

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<v Speaker0>I could feel that trust and confidence.

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<v Speaker0>And the emotional signal that it gave me or the little voice in my head said,

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<v Speaker0>wow, I don't want to disappoint him.

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<v Speaker0>You know, that's a strong driver. You don't, someone who gives you that kind

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<v Speaker0>of trust, you don't want to disappoint him.

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<v Speaker0>You want to honor that trust. That drives intrinsic motivation.

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<v Speaker0>It's not an extrinsic thing. It's not a bonus payment.

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<v Speaker1>Mm-hmm.

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<v Speaker1>I see. I actually, I think once or twice in my life, I had leadership like this

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<v Speaker1>in different companies with different clients.

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<v Speaker1>But that was really, really rare.

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<v Speaker1>That is something I would really call management talent.

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<v Speaker1>That's pretty cool. And actually, if your employees see you like that, you've already won.

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<v Speaker1>I was wondering for like the closing words, what is your best advice for founders

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<v Speaker1>or executives who want to start tomorrow?

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<v Speaker0>I think the first thing that you should do is you should, if you want to really

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<v Speaker0>start tomorrow, you go to 10 people in your organization and you ask them,

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<v Speaker0>can I have five minutes of your time?

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<v Speaker0>And you ask them that question, you know, you ask them exactly that question.

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<v Speaker0>How likely is it that you will recommend our company to someone else?

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<v Speaker0>You do your own little field research. You know, you don't do a big survey.

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<v Speaker0>You do your own little field research.

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<v Speaker0>And don't just pick the people who are fans anyway, but pick a couple,

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<v Speaker0>you know, who you know are critical and ask them then, you know,

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<v Speaker0>if they say, okay, I'm an aide.

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<v Speaker0>I say, okay, good. what do I need to do or what do we need to do as a management

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<v Speaker0>team, as an organization, so that you will give us a 9 or a 10 on that question.

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<v Speaker0>How likely is it that we recommend X, Y, Z as an employer to others?

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<v Speaker0>And you will find that you will get some really good ideas.

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<v Speaker0>So that's the first step. The second step would be that you sit together,

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<v Speaker0>evaluate what you've just found out in your little field research, and make a few,

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<v Speaker0>prioritize three or four actions where you will improve the framework that you're working in.

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<v Speaker0>Whatever it is, process improvement, nicer canteen, whatever,

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<v Speaker0>you know, and pick small measures that you can execute within a maximum of a

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<v Speaker0>quarter so that you see results. Don't do the big things, do the small things,

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<v Speaker0>do many small things, regular.

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<v Speaker0>Do like three, four things every quarter for four consecutive quarters.

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<v Speaker0>And the third thing is start practicing those habits.

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<v Speaker0>You know, if you, if you, if you say, okay, I don't know what connective listening

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<v Speaker0>is, just type in active listening or empathic listening and to chat GPT and

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<v Speaker0>tell, and ask to us, you know, let them tell you what you should train and what you should look for.

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<v Speaker0>And then practice that. Be simple, you know.

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<v Speaker0>Try to avoid judgment when you're listening. Repeat what you have heard to make

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<v Speaker0>sure that the other person feels understood.

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<v Speaker0>Focus on open-ended questions to start with what or how and avoid why and all the police questions.

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<v Speaker0>So, you know, you do that and your world will change.

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<v Speaker0>The world around you will change. You do that consistently, small things every day.

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<v Speaker0>Positive reinforcement. Catch people doing things right rather than doing things wrong.

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<v Speaker0>And ask for feet forward yourself. Is there something where you would like to

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<v Speaker0>be better, where you want to improve? You're the CEO.

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<v Speaker0>There is something that you want to improve.

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<v Speaker0>Every week, one of the things that you want to improve on, you go to two or

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<v Speaker0>three people and ask them, you know, I've got this thing I want to improve.

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<v Speaker0>What tips do you have for me? No discussion. just accept their advice,

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<v Speaker0>their tips, and that builds connection.

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<v Speaker0>It shows you humility, but it also instills excellence in the organization,

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<v Speaker0>the drive for continuous improvement.

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<v Speaker0>So you do those three things. You do those three things, measure,

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<v Speaker0>get some actions on the way, and start implementing those habits,

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<v Speaker0>and you will transform your organization within 12 months.

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<v Speaker1>Final question. What advice when you started out a management career in more

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<v Speaker1>classical companies, what advice would you have loved to have at the point you started?

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<v Speaker0>I think that I would have loved to have had,

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<v Speaker0>those lessons that I learned from Fleming 10 years later, straight from the bat.

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<v Speaker0>You know, the thing that you give trust initially, that you try to focus on

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<v Speaker0>the strengths and the things that you're good at, that your team is good at,

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<v Speaker0>I think that would have been great.

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<v Speaker1>I see. For our audience, I was wondering which leadership behavior made you

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<v Speaker1>feel seen and empowered at work.

00:18:38.489 --> 00:18:42.789
<v Speaker1>Drop us a DM or comment on YouTube or wherever you are following us.

00:18:42.889 --> 00:18:46.309
<v Speaker1>We might feature it in our next episode.

00:18:47.389 --> 00:18:51.009
<v Speaker1>Christian, thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as a guest.

00:18:51.229 --> 00:18:56.269
<v Speaker1>We may add to our audience that we are now recording for almost one hour and 20 minutes.

00:18:56.589 --> 00:18:58.929
<v Speaker1>The final episodes will be a little bit shorter.

00:18:59.389 --> 00:19:05.189
<v Speaker1>But nonetheless, we will be on Substack for a little bit exclusive deep dive

00:19:05.189 --> 00:19:07.229
<v Speaker1>for our paying customers there.

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<v Speaker1>And thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you so long here.

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<v Speaker0>Thanks a lot, Jan. Thanks a lot for the great interview.

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<v Speaker1>Totally my pleasure. Have a good day. bye bye cheers bye bye

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<v Music>