WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.080 00:00:20.060 --> 00:00:23.880 Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, 00:00:24.040 --> 00:00:28.460 your startup podcast, YouTube blog, and internet radio station from Germany, 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:29.460 Austria, and Switzerland. 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:34.560 Today, I would like to welcome Imre from Vienna here with me. 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:38.620 Before we begin, could you briefly introduce yourself and your background in 00:00:38.620 --> 00:00:41.920 psychology, burnout prevention, and leadership coaching? 00:00:42.580 --> 00:00:46.680 It will be my pleasure, Joe, and happy to see you again. 00:00:48.160 --> 00:00:54.660 I have so many things I could tell, so I'll make it rather short and quick and simple. 00:00:55.160 --> 00:01:03.960 I am a psychotherapist and teacher of psychotherapists, and before that I was an opera singer. 00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:12.380 And I decided to become a psychotherapist because I was standing on stage one 00:01:12.380 --> 00:01:17.860 night as Othello, And I had just arrived from a very, 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:24.320 very successful campaign beating the Osmanic Armada. 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:33.720 Yet I knew in two hours I will have killed my loving wife and will be about to kill myself. 00:01:33.980 --> 00:01:40.420 And there's nothing I could change about it because Verdi and Boito had decided that way. 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:43.140 And I wanted to be 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:46.040 able to make a difference and to have some 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:54.180 influence and therefore I changed from portraying human catastrophes to preventing 00:01:54.180 --> 00:02:02.900 them by psychotherapy or by coaching or by preventing burnout and other terrible 00:02:02.900 --> 00:02:04.360 things that happen to people. 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:11.099 I will kill my lovely wife and then everything. 00:02:11.239 --> 00:02:11.779 Kill myself. 00:02:12.579 --> 00:02:16.799 Kill yourself, exactly. By the way, I'm a big fan of Puccini. 00:02:17.059 --> 00:02:19.479 Did you ever play Puccini? 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.979 Well, I sang parts of Tosca, not the whole opera, unfortunately. 00:02:24.999 --> 00:02:30.379 And I also was cast for Il Tabarro. 00:02:31.379 --> 00:02:35.879 Very good, very good. Yes. Love Tosca, even though it's a little bit dramatic. 00:02:36.739 --> 00:02:42.179 Talking about dramatic here, that is actually a pretty good shift here. 00:02:42.579 --> 00:02:46.039 We are here today because I invited you as a guest. 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.219 We get something like almost 20 pitches some days, 00:02:50.379 --> 00:02:58.019 and what caught my eye was avoiding and detecting burnout in your team, 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.899 and I thought that would be something I could invite you over, 00:03:00.999 --> 00:03:05.079 talking about that would be of great use to our audience. 00:03:05.079 --> 00:03:09.999 That's why we are talking today about understanding burnout in teams, 00:03:10.239 --> 00:03:15.319 not only in you directly, but also if you're a founder in your leadership team. 00:03:15.519 --> 00:03:19.879 Can you give us a few early indicators of burnouts? 00:03:20.019 --> 00:03:24.799 What are warning signs and how can leaders differentiate between like temporary? 00:03:24.999 --> 00:03:29.019 Yeah, it's been a busy time or chronic burnout risks. 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:38.469 Well, burnout, first of all, happens to those who seem to be most unlikely to 00:03:38.469 --> 00:03:43.829 suffer burnout because they are the strongest people we have in our teams. 00:03:44.169 --> 00:03:51.969 But they are also usually the people who do most of the work and put in the biggest effort. 00:03:51.969 --> 00:04:01.189 And so they don't notice the limit when they come from enjoying their work and 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:05.429 doing good work to being driven by their work, 00:04:05.429 --> 00:04:12.389 even to the point where work becomes the only topic in their life. 00:04:12.609 --> 00:04:16.229 No private life anymore. No hobbies anymore. 00:04:16.749 --> 00:04:20.209 Only work seven days a week. 00:04:20.209 --> 00:04:27.909 And that's a first starting point when work becomes toxic in the sense that 00:04:27.909 --> 00:04:33.569 this person is already starting on the road to burning out. 00:04:33.569 --> 00:04:42.809 Now, we do have a little controversy or ambiguity in this field of burnout, 00:04:42.809 --> 00:04:48.729 because the process of burning out, burnout. 00:04:49.289 --> 00:04:55.209 And the result, the last stop, have both the same name. 00:04:55.209 --> 00:05:03.969 And since we can arrive at this final state also on four different ways, 00:05:03.989 --> 00:05:08.389 I prefer to call it voidness, emptiness. 00:05:08.769 --> 00:05:15.549 You are void of every other interesting thing in your life than work. 00:05:15.549 --> 00:05:18.729 So you can also arrive there by bore out. 00:05:18.849 --> 00:05:26.769 You can also arrive there by dripping out and by draining out and by being burned off. 00:05:28.054 --> 00:05:39.114 But we are talking today only about this part, where you arrive in voidness by burning out. 00:05:41.034 --> 00:05:46.314 When we've been talking about this upfront, I was wondering to my audience if 00:05:46.314 --> 00:05:51.674 they have ever noticed any increasing sick days error in really routine tasks 00:05:51.674 --> 00:05:53.734 or defensiveness in their teams. 00:05:53.734 --> 00:05:58.454 Let us know in the comments, what was your first sign that something was wrong in your team? 00:06:00.054 --> 00:06:06.234 You already said that there are different ways of burnout that eventually arrive 00:06:06.234 --> 00:06:08.094 at the point where you cannot work anymore. 00:06:09.254 --> 00:06:14.314 And where, of course, also you lose the joy in what you're doing, 00:06:14.474 --> 00:06:23.474 which is pretty bad. Can you tell us a little bit what role leadership has in preventing a burnout? 00:06:23.994 --> 00:06:31.754 Well, first of all, leadership has to be very attentive to the possibility of 00:06:31.754 --> 00:06:35.054 burnout arriving in their group. 00:06:35.794 --> 00:06:43.894 They, as a leader, you must notice that we have been working on our limits now for a longer time. 00:06:43.894 --> 00:06:48.554 It's okay to go over your limits for a short period, 00:06:49.074 --> 00:06:54.254 let's say one or two weeks, but when a group is working way, 00:06:54.354 --> 00:06:58.854 way past its limits for several months, for example, 00:06:59.334 --> 00:07:05.034 you don't have enough people on your workforce, you don't have enough qualification 00:07:05.034 --> 00:07:10.274 for the jobs that need to be done, you don't have enough... 00:07:11.544 --> 00:07:15.184 People who can't care for the other people. 00:07:15.684 --> 00:07:21.324 Then you will start to see that there are people going into sick leave, 00:07:21.584 --> 00:07:28.704 not because they are actually sick physically, but they just cannot bear it anymore. 00:07:29.464 --> 00:07:32.544 And they are usually the best, not the worst. 00:07:32.784 --> 00:07:39.764 Then you will notice a rise in the overtime, whether it is paid or not paid. 00:07:39.764 --> 00:07:46.784 But you will see that you drive out of your garage at your work plant, 00:07:46.784 --> 00:07:52.984 and there are some windows which are still lit because people are still working there, 00:07:53.424 --> 00:07:56.924 somehow to fill their deadlines, 00:07:57.464 --> 00:08:03.544 somehow to do their actual jobs, and still because they think that their job 00:08:03.544 --> 00:08:05.144 is very, very important. 00:08:05.144 --> 00:08:12.104 And then they come to the next step where they think, if I don't put in the 00:08:12.104 --> 00:08:17.544 extra effort, then the whole company is going down the drains. 00:08:18.304 --> 00:08:26.524 And this is overestimating one's necessity, one's being needed by the company. 00:08:26.524 --> 00:08:29.524 And once you're past that, you 00:08:29.524 --> 00:08:40.764 are really into the funnel which sucks you into this burning out process where 00:08:40.764 --> 00:08:48.104 you will finally land at being completely void of any possibilities, 00:08:48.104 --> 00:08:51.384 of any power, any strength, 00:08:51.824 --> 00:08:55.524 any interests, and just simply giving up. 00:08:56.404 --> 00:08:59.924 And this may be deadly. 00:09:01.884 --> 00:09:08.204 And now imagine you have, let's say, you have in a group a workforce of 10. 00:09:08.624 --> 00:09:15.504 Now, one of them falls out because of burnout, which means that usually the 00:09:15.504 --> 00:09:23.364 work of 10 has to be done by 9, which, of course, puts an extra strain on all of the 9. 00:09:23.364 --> 00:09:29.944 Then the nine again, one of them gets a burnout, so all of a sudden the same 00:09:29.944 --> 00:09:33.924 workload is distributed to eight people. 00:09:34.743 --> 00:09:41.043 And I don't know how you can imagine to go down to finally having one person 00:09:41.043 --> 00:09:44.023 doing the job of 10. It's impossible. 00:09:44.503 --> 00:09:51.203 So you have to take measures very, very early and be very attentive. 00:09:51.763 --> 00:09:54.863 The easiest way, of course, 00:09:55.003 --> 00:10:03.163 to find out whether people in your workforce are in danger is to sit down with 00:10:03.163 --> 00:10:07.243 them when they come back from vacation, if they have taken any, 00:10:07.503 --> 00:10:12.783 and ask them, well, how was your vacation? Tell me about your vacation. 00:10:13.223 --> 00:10:18.083 Oh, I was always thinking about the work and all the things we have to do, 00:10:18.103 --> 00:10:21.603 and I have a new idea how we could do this or that. 00:10:22.303 --> 00:10:29.463 That person is in danger of burning out. If one of your employees hasn't taken 00:10:29.463 --> 00:10:34.803 a vacation for a year, that's a very, very bad sign. 00:10:35.003 --> 00:10:41.563 This person has to be sent to take a vacation and has to be taken care of. 00:10:42.403 --> 00:10:46.583 You've been talking about from a personal and individual perspective. 00:10:46.583 --> 00:10:53.543 I would now like to take a perspective, for example, from a C-level executive 00:10:53.543 --> 00:10:56.363 down to your managing level. 00:10:56.483 --> 00:11:01.983 Are there certain leadership styles that influence the burnout rate in their teams? 00:11:02.003 --> 00:11:06.763 Of course, they'll have some type of SIG percentage reporting, 00:11:07.343 --> 00:11:10.203 some type of color indicator. 00:11:10.203 --> 00:11:18.043 But as you've already shown, when you go from a team of 10, you go down to 9, 00:11:18.163 --> 00:11:22.443 you go down to 7, that should really, really raise a lot of red flags. 00:11:23.883 --> 00:11:27.503 Could you talk about the leadership style here? 00:11:28.483 --> 00:11:31.983 Oh, well, definitely. You see, any 00:11:31.983 --> 00:11:44.283 leadership style that does not listen very carefully to the sound of their employees 00:11:44.283 --> 00:11:50.263 is prone to produce burnout and voidness at the end. 00:11:50.263 --> 00:11:55.703 And also leaders who think that, 00:11:55.903 --> 00:12:02.543 oh, I have so much work and I don't see why my employees shouldn't have as much 00:12:02.543 --> 00:12:08.463 work as well are also dangerous leaders in the end. 00:12:09.283 --> 00:12:17.963 And third, I think that any leadership style that goes by numbers. 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:27.219 You know, just looking at the numbers is way, way too far away from the employees. 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:32.159 I think leading people is a person's job. 00:12:32.359 --> 00:12:35.819 You have to have the personality of the leader. 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.959 And this is not something you learn in any management school, 00:12:40.959 --> 00:12:47.019 but this is an attitude you have to learn through personality development, 00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:50.359 maybe even personal training, 00:12:50.359 --> 00:12:59.479 but that is not what you learn when you follow courses of accounting and of 00:12:59.479 --> 00:13:04.739 all these numbers-based leadership styles. 00:13:05.699 --> 00:13:12.559 I'm also quite aware that right now there is a so-called Leadership 5.0, 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:18.899 which is basing itself on artificial intelligence. 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:28.379 Sorry, a person does not want to talk with artificial intelligence. 00:13:29.219 --> 00:13:33.459 You don't want to go on a date with some artificial intelligence. 00:13:34.139 --> 00:13:38.939 You don't want to have your boss as artificial intelligence. 00:13:38.939 --> 00:13:46.019 You need a person because you work, and that is something you have to keep in mind. 00:13:46.239 --> 00:13:52.479 You work with and for people. And latest research by D. 00:13:52.639 --> 00:14:04.239 Lloyd has shown that people, about 75% of our workforce, come to us because 00:14:04.239 --> 00:14:06.939 of the company's name, reputation, 00:14:07.359 --> 00:14:13.639 or because it's a very interesting job, or whatever benefits there are. 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:23.399 But 65 to 70% of these people are leaving because of their direct superiority. 00:14:24.445 --> 00:14:32.145 Because they have not gotten enough attention, they have not gotten enough mental, emotional rewards. 00:14:33.085 --> 00:14:41.865 And then there are again 30% who say the workplace atmosphere was so horrible, 00:14:42.725 --> 00:14:50.025 no fun, no puns, nothing just work, work, work, work, and they left for that. 00:14:50.025 --> 00:15:00.945 But when you ask them whose responsibility it is to have a good atmosphere in 00:15:00.945 --> 00:15:04.085 the workplace, they say it's the boss's responsibility. 00:15:05.105 --> 00:15:13.645 So at the 60 and then the 30, you arrive at 90% of those who leave us that are 00:15:13.645 --> 00:15:17.385 leaving us because of their direct superiors. 00:15:17.385 --> 00:15:24.825 I was wondering, when you've been saying about the managing by numbers, 00:15:24.825 --> 00:15:26.885 there are a lot of entrepreneurs, 00:15:27.305 --> 00:15:34.045 leaders who have organizations big enough that they necessarily cannot talk 00:15:34.045 --> 00:15:39.565 to all the employees, also thinking about international branches and so on and so forth. 00:15:39.565 --> 00:15:49.145 How would you recommend they try to avoid the burnouts in their teams without 00:15:49.145 --> 00:15:51.805 only looking at the numbers? 00:15:51.805 --> 00:15:57.805 Is it like regular visits, regular exchanges with leadership team there on site? 00:15:58.987 --> 00:16:05.547 Well, that's a very good idea to start with, but of course, that's usually not enough. 00:16:05.907 --> 00:16:13.307 I think that basically our employees of today want to be respected as human 00:16:13.307 --> 00:16:20.607 beings, and they want to have a little say about what's happening in the company. 00:16:20.607 --> 00:16:32.887 So we at LeoVeen.com have developed a special tool for companies to get very 00:16:32.887 --> 00:16:34.947 good feedback from their employees, 00:16:35.427 --> 00:16:45.747 but not in the usual form, which is you as the employee fill out something and your boss gets it. 00:16:45.747 --> 00:16:49.347 In our concept, in our project, 00:16:49.867 --> 00:16:59.807 employees are invited to fill out just 48 questions and grade them from one 00:16:59.807 --> 00:17:04.647 to nine and send them directly to our company. 00:17:05.067 --> 00:17:12.127 And we guarantee 100% confidentiality. 00:17:12.127 --> 00:17:12.627 Thank you very much, 00:17:12.767 --> 00:17:20.287 Yes. So, and then from that, we calculate, this is numbers again, 00:17:20.487 --> 00:17:22.387 yes, but it's an average. 00:17:22.567 --> 00:17:30.187 We calculate how much the whole workforce is in danger, 00:17:30.187 --> 00:17:42.207 And we also provide the employer with a possibility to see which fields of improvement 00:17:42.207 --> 00:17:45.387 would yield the best results. 00:17:45.387 --> 00:17:52.887 In addition to that, since all the questionnaires are coded, 00:17:53.407 --> 00:17:58.287 employees get the first feedback which says, oh, congratulations, 00:17:58.307 --> 00:18:00.867 you have a very healthy workplace. 00:18:00.867 --> 00:18:09.587 To, well, some improvement might be necessary to the point of there is urgent 00:18:09.587 --> 00:18:12.747 need of action where they can, 00:18:13.067 --> 00:18:16.347 provided the company agrees to that. 00:18:17.087 --> 00:18:21.487 Come to our coaches for advice. 00:18:21.607 --> 00:18:26.507 They just deliver a voucher that they have got from their company, 00:18:27.127 --> 00:18:29.887 but the voucher does not say to whom it belongs. 00:18:29.887 --> 00:18:39.047 So, and that voucher again is our means for laying out the fees for the company. 00:18:39.768 --> 00:18:50.688 So it is a very, very safe way of employees and employers getting good feedback. 00:18:51.168 --> 00:18:55.688 Good feedback means it's useful feedback. You can do something with it. 00:18:56.048 --> 00:19:00.868 And therefore, we have been very successful with this. 00:19:00.868 --> 00:19:06.768 But since we are very much based on confidentiality, 00:19:07.008 --> 00:19:13.468 we also do not use our customers for our own advertising, 00:19:13.468 --> 00:19:22.908 which is something that might make it difficult in today's field of attractivity, 00:19:22.908 --> 00:19:31.908 where everybody is boasting with 500 acknowledgements and feedbacks. 00:19:32.588 --> 00:19:37.908 We don't do that. We invite the company. 00:19:38.848 --> 00:19:45.108 First, usually it will be the HR responsible or it's the CEO himself, 00:19:45.328 --> 00:19:49.748 herself, to have the first personal meeting. 00:19:49.748 --> 00:19:56.548 Then we are very willing to come to the company and give a speech, 00:19:56.868 --> 00:20:07.828 a presentation on burnout and its dangers and its effects and present our model of the project. 00:20:07.828 --> 00:20:16.488 And then even after that there might be a vote among the employees or on the 00:20:16.488 --> 00:20:23.948 other hand on the management level yes let's do it or yes we would like to have this. 00:20:24.468 --> 00:20:27.408 It's all about trust and cooperation. 00:20:29.568 --> 00:20:36.968 You cannot force anybody to be truthful because I say, please be truthful. No, please. 00:20:37.408 --> 00:20:40.488 Just be truthful. No, sorry, that doesn't work. 00:20:40.888 --> 00:20:52.468 That's what is called management style X by color, as opposed to Y, 00:20:52.808 --> 00:20:55.828 which is more lenient leadership. 00:20:56.168 --> 00:21:02.928 You are already quite ahead of me. What I want to ask you, let me take one step 00:21:02.928 --> 00:21:07.188 back before we get into practical strategies for burnout prevention. 00:21:07.328 --> 00:21:12.328 We already know you recommend involving a third party, involving questionnaires. 00:21:12.548 --> 00:21:18.588 But before we get into that, can a company do something in terms of workplace 00:21:18.588 --> 00:21:21.908 culture, avoiding burnout risk? 00:21:21.908 --> 00:21:30.508 How can they manifest, contribute to ingrain in the culture pieces that would 00:21:30.508 --> 00:21:36.868 minimize, not completely avoid, but minimize the burnout risk? What would that be? 00:21:37.088 --> 00:21:46.268 There are certain measures, but it makes a difference whether you just try something 00:21:46.268 --> 00:21:50.748 because you have heard that it worked somewhere, As opposed to, 00:21:50.968 --> 00:21:53.028 I come back to what I just said, 00:21:53.508 --> 00:22:00.568 having a precise and clear-cut feedback that says most likely, for example, 00:22:01.328 --> 00:22:11.008 improving the feedback culture or dealing better with so-called mistakes. 00:22:11.008 --> 00:22:17.728 So I don't call it a mistake culture, I call it a development culture, or a learning culture. 00:22:18.728 --> 00:22:27.988 And then of course some people think that they are in the wrong place. Now if, 00:22:28.938 --> 00:22:35.658 30% of your employees think I'm in the wrong place, then definitely re-evaluating 00:22:35.658 --> 00:22:42.978 who is doing what is a very recommendable approach. 00:22:43.178 --> 00:22:47.398 While if everybody thinks they're in the right place and you evaluate again, 00:22:47.618 --> 00:22:50.278 that doesn't make any impact whatsoever. 00:22:50.838 --> 00:22:58.698 You know, it reminds me of an experiment that was done about 100 years ago. 00:22:58.938 --> 00:23:09.018 A big factory hall where women were assembling light bulbs. 00:23:10.918 --> 00:23:17.178 And in came a group of researchers with their pads and everything, 00:23:17.338 --> 00:23:22.178 and they talked to the ladies, and then they gave the recommendation, 00:23:23.218 --> 00:23:28.198 let us increase the power of the lighting by 20%. 00:23:29.358 --> 00:23:34.158 They did it, and the output rose by 20%. 00:23:35.843 --> 00:23:39.883 Now, they said, well, why don't we raise it for another 10 percent? 00:23:40.783 --> 00:23:48.383 It was even brighter and lighter by 10 percent, and the output was 10 percent higher. 00:23:49.443 --> 00:23:55.543 And then they said, well, this cannot be true, that the output is a direct, 00:23:55.543 --> 00:24:01.403 relevant coefficient of lighting. 00:24:01.403 --> 00:24:14.263 So let us reduce the light by 10% again and they did it and the output rose by 10%. 00:24:15.483 --> 00:24:22.923 And so they really got into researching this and finally they found out the 00:24:22.923 --> 00:24:32.803 output was not a result of the lighting it was a result of being asked about their situation, 00:24:33.203 --> 00:24:35.523 having somebody caring for them. 00:24:36.663 --> 00:24:45.703 And so in that case, they learned you have to care for your employees. 00:24:45.703 --> 00:24:49.363 You have to involve them in what's happening. 00:24:49.963 --> 00:24:53.043 You have to raise their self-esteem. 00:24:53.983 --> 00:24:56.943 But many other possibilities are there, too. 00:24:56.943 --> 00:25:04.223 So I am still an advocate of either asking the employees directly, 00:25:04.243 --> 00:25:08.603 which might yield unwanted results, 00:25:08.883 --> 00:25:12.143 like pay me more, let me work less, 00:25:12.623 --> 00:25:21.863 as opposed to the truly relevant factors, which might be like having more freedom 00:25:21.863 --> 00:25:25.943 of action or having the information. 00:25:26.943 --> 00:25:35.363 I need at the time I need it and in the full amount I need it, those kinds of things. 00:25:35.863 --> 00:25:42.803 So then improving the information flow might prevent burnout. 00:25:45.523 --> 00:25:53.503 I see. So if you ingrain this caring about your employees in the company culture, 00:25:53.543 --> 00:26:00.603 that will be already a pretty good indicator that you try at least to minimize the risk, 00:26:00.763 --> 00:26:08.203 even though we all know, unfortunately, this is not necessary, always 100% secure. 00:26:08.763 --> 00:26:11.923 Let us get to a little ad break. 00:26:12.103 --> 00:26:16.763 And when we're back, we talk a little bit about addressing work overload phases 00:26:16.763 --> 00:26:21.063 and proactive leadership involvement and psychological safety. 00:26:26.742 --> 00:26:32.842 Hey, guys. Thank you for sticking around. We are back with Imre talking about 00:26:35.202 --> 00:26:40.802 early detection of potential burnouts in your teams and the roles of leadership. 00:26:41.182 --> 00:26:50.702 We have just talked about how we can find and address these burnouts and what 00:26:50.702 --> 00:26:54.182 data-driven approach with feedback culture you are recommending. 00:26:54.182 --> 00:26:59.442 And we also talked about how to include this potentially in your company culture. 00:26:59.762 --> 00:27:07.182 Now, I would like to talk a little bit about addressing the overload and regeneration phases. 00:27:08.662 --> 00:27:14.062 How should companies define healthy work rest cycle for employees? 00:27:14.222 --> 00:27:20.542 For example, I was once talking to an entrepreneur and he insisted that his 00:27:20.542 --> 00:27:23.302 people take at least one week off per quarter. 00:27:23.302 --> 00:27:27.202 Oh, I agree with that gentleman 100%. 00:27:27.202 --> 00:27:35.662 And I think I said it before that if a person has not taken leave at all for a whole year, 00:27:35.962 --> 00:27:43.822 that is definitely a warning sign that burnout might be already way on its way. 00:27:45.222 --> 00:27:53.482 I think there is a big misunderstanding in general we have this expression work 00:27:53.482 --> 00:27:59.622 life balance and we think that on the one hand there is work on the other hand 00:27:59.622 --> 00:28:02.182 there is life and they should be in balance, 00:28:03.162 --> 00:28:14.002 in my perception this is a big mistake it's called work life balance That means in your work life, 00:28:14.302 --> 00:28:19.182 while you are at work, there must be a balance between, 00:28:20.462 --> 00:28:26.002 sort of stop and go, taking a rest and then getting to work again. 00:28:26.282 --> 00:28:29.782 You need these moments. 00:28:33.038 --> 00:28:39.938 Resting, of getting your resilience going at your workplace, 00:28:40.298 --> 00:28:42.298 not wait until you are at home. 00:28:42.998 --> 00:28:48.018 And that is something that good workplaces provide, 00:28:48.318 --> 00:29:02.978 be it, I know of an organization here in Vienna where they offered half an hour of sports after lunch. 00:29:03.538 --> 00:29:15.298 So just gymnastics or throwing the ball or frisbee around or whatever was possible due to the weather. 00:29:15.698 --> 00:29:20.698 But, of course, it was not just the people, 00:29:20.838 --> 00:29:26.978 okay, you can go out into the park now, But we have an animateur who is with 00:29:26.978 --> 00:29:33.798 you in the park and who will play all kinds of relaxing and at the same time 00:29:33.798 --> 00:29:37.198 mind-opening games with you. 00:29:38.438 --> 00:29:43.658 Actually, that really plays into what I've been learning about myself. 00:29:43.658 --> 00:29:49.578 When I started Sotabrate.io and I still do this, I work quite a lot. 00:29:49.578 --> 00:29:54.778 So working until midnight is not uncommon once or twice a week. 00:29:54.898 --> 00:30:01.038 But I realized I get a much better balance if I do spend in the meantime more time with my family. 00:30:01.278 --> 00:30:07.278 Plus what I tend to do like the old people do. I get out for a walk at least 30 minutes a day. 00:30:07.438 --> 00:30:14.018 And that helped me really very much. We try to also communicate some German culture here. 00:30:14.118 --> 00:30:18.918 What we say for unwinding here in Germany is let your soul dangle. 00:30:20.458 --> 00:30:26.238 Give it some time, relax it. That was what I had in mind when we were talking about that. 00:30:27.481 --> 00:30:35.441 Well, actually, this letting your soul hand dangle is a quote from Johann Wolfgang 00:30:35.441 --> 00:30:38.201 Goethe where he already said, 00:30:38.661 --> 00:30:47.921 just lie in the meadow and let your soul dangle and you will find the most fantastic 00:30:47.921 --> 00:30:56.661 and amusing or even clarifying ideas. 00:30:57.481 --> 00:31:04.901 And basically you have to get out of thinking always of your work in order to 00:31:04.901 --> 00:31:07.661 have better ideas for your work. 00:31:07.761 --> 00:31:20.221 So we know that you can get the output you want in the quantity and in the timeliness 00:31:20.221 --> 00:31:23.141 you want by being strict. 00:31:23.141 --> 00:31:29.681 But if you let your people work as they think it's right for them, 00:31:30.341 --> 00:31:32.961 you will in addition get the quality, 00:31:33.641 --> 00:31:41.001 get the innovation, and also get the persistence. 00:31:41.381 --> 00:31:49.161 So it will not be broken in two days, but it will stay working for maybe decades. 00:31:50.500 --> 00:32:01.960 All that is part of why leadership should take care of these threats of burnout, 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:05.580 also from an economic point of view. 00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:08.100 It's not just because we are so nice. 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:12.300 It's not just because we like humans. 00:32:13.040 --> 00:32:18.420 Excuse me, we trap ourselves into this type of thinking. 00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:28.660 It is very, very economic because it's not the weakest in performance who go 00:32:28.660 --> 00:32:31.180 to burnout, but the best. 00:32:31.420 --> 00:32:35.400 Those really carry your whole success. 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:47.380 And therefore, I think it's like taking summer tires in a winter snowstorm, 00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:52.620 not to look after your employees', 00:32:53.220 --> 00:33:01.060 well-being in that sense, not to make sure that they can and want to stick around. 00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:06.560 I was wondering when you talk about not only from the goodness of your heart, 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:14.400 but what actually should drive your curiousness for human beings and should 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.520 be already something you want to do. 00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:22.600 But also there is, of course, a financial rule to this because it takes quite 00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:26.440 a long time for an employee to recover from burnout. 00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:32.280 I had this here around in Germany and you can be sick up to 18 months and then 00:33:32.280 --> 00:33:35.660 you have a phase of up to half a year of reintegration. 00:33:35.900 --> 00:33:38.160 Can you share your experiences with that? 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:44.380 Yes, this is exactly the number I have too. And I know that, 00:33:46.494 --> 00:33:53.674 It is a big, big loss for the company because what do you do? 00:33:53.934 --> 00:34:00.814 You have no guarantee that, number one, this person will come back at all. 00:34:01.494 --> 00:34:06.554 You don't know the exact time, how long it will take that person to recover. 00:34:07.074 --> 00:34:13.714 So you cannot say, okay, I hire somebody else for six months and then the other 00:34:13.714 --> 00:34:18.314 person will be back. So you have absolutely nothing to go by. 00:34:19.274 --> 00:34:29.914 And therefore, maybe the idea is, now, I have been giving this person definitely too much work. 00:34:30.254 --> 00:34:36.594 Let's assume he will be back in one and a half or two years. 00:34:37.214 --> 00:34:43.694 Then this person will still have a need of a certain time to reintegrate. 00:34:43.694 --> 00:34:53.834 And for those two years, it's definitely feasible and sensible to get somebody else. 00:34:54.414 --> 00:35:01.834 And then when this person comes back, then we sit together and redistribute the workload. 00:35:03.074 --> 00:35:07.974 So it's always about not having enough people. 00:35:07.974 --> 00:35:19.694 And replacing a person who is on sick leave is definitely a better investment 00:35:19.694 --> 00:35:26.474 than just to have the others burn out while waiting for him or her to come back. 00:35:29.574 --> 00:35:34.494 I was wondering for our audience, what strategies have worked for you in reducing 00:35:34.494 --> 00:35:36.554 burnout in your team in the past? 00:35:36.754 --> 00:35:42.774 Have you implemented any specific policies or initiatives that have made a difference? 00:35:43.014 --> 00:35:45.114 Drop your thoughts in the comments here. 00:35:46.074 --> 00:35:56.774 Okay. First of all, what worked very well was to clearly define the number of people I am leading. 00:35:57.194 --> 00:36:01.234 And that number should not be more than seven. 00:36:02.959 --> 00:36:07.959 If I have more people, because I'm building up the company, for example, 00:36:08.419 --> 00:36:15.439 that would mean that I already have to work in some sort of divisions system. 00:36:16.459 --> 00:36:26.099 So generally, going from the top to the bottom, it's groups of sevens, maximum tens. 00:36:26.839 --> 00:36:31.639 And that means that these are your direct reports. 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:35.579 You don't have more than 10, let's say, 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:45.159 direct reports, and you have to have enough time to lead these direct reports 00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:51.359 consequently with all aspects involved. 00:36:51.359 --> 00:36:58.439 That is to say, we're talking to them at least once a year, this famous once 00:36:58.439 --> 00:37:05.519 a year evaluation in German called Jahresgespräch, 00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:12.119 where I have seen so many companies who have realized, yes. 00:37:12.939 --> 00:37:15.839 Bosses need to talk to their employees. 00:37:15.839 --> 00:37:24.559 And then when they introduced it, some of the supervisors said, 00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:26.539 why do I have to talk to them? 00:37:27.019 --> 00:37:29.379 They know everything anyway. 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:36.039 And others came and said, may I only talk to them once? I like to talk to them several times. 00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:45.459 But this is one basic conversation that only has three topics. 00:37:45.839 --> 00:37:53.619 Number one, what did we do well in our cooperation? 00:37:54.339 --> 00:38:00.159 You and I. Not the company, not the others. You and I. 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:09.939 Secondly, what are we going to improve concerning our cooperation in the coming year? 00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:16.519 And then we're talking about wishes. is, we're talking about needs, 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:25.059 we are not talking about complaints, because the complaints have to be turned into future actions. 00:38:25.759 --> 00:38:35.839 And then the third topic is, where should, respectively, would the employee like to develop? 00:38:37.429 --> 00:38:40.809 And that's all, not about paying, 00:38:41.089 --> 00:38:47.389 not about any other things, only these three topics, and take one and a half 00:38:47.389 --> 00:38:50.369 to two hours for these three topics, 00:38:50.389 --> 00:39:01.349 and you have done all you can do to plant the seed of trust between your employee and yourself. 00:39:01.989 --> 00:39:10.929 And then you will get honest and valuable feedback from your employee when he 00:39:10.929 --> 00:39:15.029 will tell you in time, listen, boss, this is getting too much for me. 00:39:15.029 --> 00:39:18.969 I need some other arrangement. 00:39:18.989 --> 00:39:25.429 We have to talk about finding different ways of doing my work, 00:39:25.429 --> 00:39:29.409 or is there something I could let go of, 00:39:29.749 --> 00:39:35.169 which is the hardest thing for every employee to get, 00:39:35.529 --> 00:39:42.969 to let go of something, because the more jobs and the more chores you have, 00:39:43.209 --> 00:39:47.469 you feel the more needed and important. 00:39:47.849 --> 00:39:51.229 Not just to say powerful, but important. 00:39:51.729 --> 00:39:58.669 We are a podcast also focused on tech entrepreneurship, talking a little bit 00:39:58.669 --> 00:40:02.949 about future trends in burnout prevention here. 00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:11.569 Do you see any potential with the rise of AI-driven workplace analytics that 00:40:11.569 --> 00:40:16.789 technology can be used to monitor and mitigate burnout risk? 00:40:17.616 --> 00:40:26.716 Well, I'm not a great friend of AI, but I'm also not a terrible enemy of it. 00:40:26.916 --> 00:40:34.596 I think that it needs to be used in a very human way, 00:40:34.856 --> 00:40:45.496 which is to say what can be done by AI and not so well done by a human should be done by AI. 00:40:45.496 --> 00:40:55.896 And that is to have one or two monitoring systems, but never replacing the interaction 00:40:55.896 --> 00:40:58.976 between superiors and employees, 00:40:59.356 --> 00:41:05.836 but rather assisting also the employees so that the employee can see, 00:41:06.036 --> 00:41:13.436 oh, wait a minute, I haven't had a week of leave for the past 12 months. 00:41:13.436 --> 00:41:21.636 I need to take one now, and then AI maybe shows a red flag right there to the 00:41:21.636 --> 00:41:24.876 employee rather than to the boss where 00:41:24.876 --> 00:41:30.936 many employees think they are being controlled by some machine or so. 00:41:32.176 --> 00:41:43.796 I think you may remember this big scandal in Germany where a company had name tags for everybody, 00:41:44.156 --> 00:41:46.676 but the name tag was at the same 00:41:46.676 --> 00:41:56.336 time a monitor that was registering every time you pass certain doors. 00:41:58.045 --> 00:42:06.005 And so usually the company knew earlier than the female employee that she was 00:42:06.005 --> 00:42:10.685 pregnant because she was going to the loo more often. 00:42:11.345 --> 00:42:17.485 And so they had an increase in the frequency of her visits to the restroom, 00:42:17.845 --> 00:42:20.485 which told them, oh, maybe she's pregnant. 00:42:20.485 --> 00:42:25.565 I think we have to get rid of her before she goes on pregnancy leave. 00:42:25.565 --> 00:42:40.425 So examples like these stick unfortunately in the minds of our co-workers and give them a sort of fear, 00:42:40.685 --> 00:42:44.105 what if the machines control me even more? 00:42:45.045 --> 00:42:52.765 So AI is seen usually as a means of being controlled and being manipulated. 00:42:53.605 --> 00:43:01.825 While put at the person's use and control, it may seem very helpful to say, 00:43:02.005 --> 00:43:06.305